Maybe we can’t have more hunters

[Pucky Freak]

I don’t mean we shouldn’t have more hunters, or that we can’t afford to have more hunters, or that we won’t have new hunters, but rather that perhaps it’s just impossible to have a greater total number of hunters.

Matt Rinella’s newest article struck a chord. I reread his 2019 R3 article, and also listened to his 2 Blood Origin interviews. I’m still trying to synthesize all the information in my brain and here is that work in progress.

In respect to the goal of increasing conservation advocacy, perhaps it is a fool’s errand to promote saturated hunting opportunities if the result is that we displace advocates who currently exist in this space. By saturated I mean any OTC hunting that is crowded, and any draw that is oversubscribed.

What if the total number of all hunter hours = access*habitat*interest? Access and habitat are in continuous decline. Maybe this is the real reason we are at risk of losing conservation advocacy, and fewer persons hunting is simply a consequence rather than a cause.

A comprehensive approach to increasing conservation advocacy:
A. Promote habitat
B. Promote sound wildlife management
C. Promote access
D. Promote undersubscribed hunting opportunities.
E. (Painful for many) Make a strategic exit from commercial promotions of saturated hunting opportunities.

 

[Pucky Freak]

I should probably add to the list “F. Recruit conservation advocates among persons passionate about wildlife and wild natural places.”

 

[rwc101]

At this point I think the appetite is insatiable. Promoting undersubscribed hunts is the quickest way to turn it into an oversubscribed hunt.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist though.

 

[Pucky Freak]

At this point I think the appetite is insatiable. Promoting undersubscribed hunts is the quickest way to turn it into an oversubscribed hunt.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist though.

Yes, the turnaround of quiet to completely blown up can be instant, e.g. southeast AK for deer. Things like small game in the east or Midwest seem to be less of a lightening rod.

 

[texwest44]

E. (Painful for many) Make a strategic exit from commercial promotions of saturated hunting opportunities.

This is such a insane, massive obstacle. The commercialization of hunting has grown the industry and culture to a position beyond simply providing resources for hunters. The marketing/ propaganda and poltical segments of the industry have become so powerful that no amount of conservation concern will ever sway them - business and government often come to the point where their self-survival, growth, and seat at the table of power(s) out-prioritize any original goal they might have had.

How do we reconcile hunting, an activity that is inherently rooted in conserving resource and land, with the systems we create to manage all of our activities, which almost exclusively come to focus on perpetual growth and power which requires increased consumption of resource and land?

I think we might be coming up on a different conversation that a lot of folks do NOT want to have, which is inevitably going to advocate deconstructing a lot of the culture we've supported through the years. Capitalism and land/resource conservation might not be the solid mixers that people absolutely 100% asserted they were for so long. We're getting to that "something's gotta give" point, and we all know what's going to end up giving if we don't get serious and stop licking certain boots.

 

[mtmuley]

In Montana, we just add more seasons. mtmuley

 

[noharleyyet]

In Montana, we just add more seasons. mtmuley

Cough…Dissuade NR’s…cough I mean poor NR’s (edit to add)

 

[elkduds]

Cough…Dissuade NR’s…cough I mean poor NR’s (edit to add)

Gets me thinking, since this is already in place in several western states, and always being considered in the others: How many hunters will relocate in order to get resident hunting privileges? Where will you put them in MT and ID? Room to spare in WY, @ least for now.

I guess I'm asking those assembled if limiting NRs backfires by increasing immigration to destination hunting states? What's worse, a bunch or NR hunters who go away after hunting season, or a bunch of new resident hunters that make themselves @ home?

 

[Hammsolo]

I think there are strategies for conservation that may not actually increase hunters. If we focus on habitat conservation we can coordinate with other groups and magnify our efforts.

I am also an avid mountain biker and member of Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance, as well as RMEF, in WA. We’ve learned over the years that multi-use management is just more successful. Division divides…. Drrr, and weakens the effects of all groups that are trying to have a positive effect. Yes, this means we will have to collaborate and compromise at times. If every hill is one to die on we’re going to die damn quickly.

Getting people out into the wild is key. They have to see the value in protection of habitat. People don’t tend to value what they don’t use. We need people out experiencing the wild in some way; hunting, fishing, hiking, horse back riding, camping…

We must set some differences aside and realize strength is in numbers. Focusing on collaboration with groups with similar values to protect multi-use habitat is key, and spreads the pressure out across the year.

 

[Sytes]

Year-to-date figures recorded between March 1 and Oct. 18 show a jump in non-resident hunting license sales from 52,356 in 2019 to 79,281 during the same period in 2021. The total number of hunting license sales also grew among Montana residents, from 121,982 in 2019 to 136,285 in 2021.

Interesting stats. Next year, I figure a fair portion of '21 excess increase over prior years for Non Resident will convert to Resident.

 

[rwc101]

Getting people out into the wild is key. They have to see the value in protection of habitat. People don’t tend to value what they don’t use. We need people out experiencing the wild in some way; hunting, fishing, hiking, horse back riding, camping…

Overall, I agree. Hunters need to be the ones who communicate the value of habitat to other groups. I got strange looks for advocating for seasonal closures and unbroken habitat during some meetings about trail development around here.

 

[wa_archer]

Gets me thinking, since this is already in place in several western states, and always being considered in the others: How many hunters will relocate in order to get resident hunting privileges? Where will you put them in MT and ID? Room to spare in WY, @ least for now.

I guess I'm asking those assembled if limiting NRs backfires by increasing immigration to destination hunting states? What's worse, a bunch or NR hunters who go away after hunting season, or a bunch of new resident hunters that make themselves @ home?

Well im to blame there, only 11 more years to retirement and then its resident in Idaho already have my spot. I do believe there are many more like me. I just wish with my job i could just claim residency now. Got to stay a resident here though.

Your hitting the nail on the head though. Its not about more hunter numbers. hunters will never win with just more numbers. It has to be keeping the overwhelming population agreeing that hunting is a positive way of life. Creating hunters that show up when it matters be it the politically, meeting, comments, voicing our concerns.

The ease of entry has never, never been easier and yet numbers still decrease. But at the same time days affield and % that hunt multiple states increasing.

Maybe we just need a really good recession to get fewer hunters to spend money hunting out of state. Although then you hit the game departments where it hurts.

 

[ccc23454]

So what year will general resident OTC opportunities for elk go away in idaho, montana, colorodo and wyoming? At current increases in population trends its going to have to happen but may be 5-10 years ( i guess2 in this time frame) or even 40 years but there is only so much of a resource including places to hunt them and at current pace we cant even come close to meet demands. We are going to scream it will never happen but its just denial, there is a day when residents will apply for generals unfortunately. I do think many NRs will tire of complex systems, expensive applications and LONG waits but overall residents may impact system drastically worse. Kind of scary for future generations!

 

[Pucky Freak]

So what year will general resident OTC opportunities for elk go away in idaho, montana, colorodo and wyoming?

Anybody's guess...

Idaho 2023 for NR
Montana never
Colorado 2025
Wyoming only when the R population really increases. 10 years? 15 years?

 

[Irrelevant]

Gets me thinking, since this is already in place in several western states, and always being considered in the others: How many hunters will relocate in order to get resident hunting privileges? Where will you put them in MT and ID? Room to spare in WY, @ least for now.

I guess I'm asking those assembled if limiting NRs backfires by increasing immigration to destination hunting states? What's worse, a bunch or NR hunters who go away after hunting season, or a bunch of new resident hunters that make themselves @ home

If I can't live in WA but hunt the rockies then yes, that may drive me to relocate. right now the couple k difference in license fees isn't enough.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

So what year will general resident OTC opportunities for elk go away in idaho, montana, colorodo and wyoming? At current increases in population trends its going to have to happen but may be 5-10 years ( i guess2 in this time frame) or even 40 years but there is only so much of a resource including places to hunt them and at current pace we cant even come close to meet demands. We are going to scream it will never happen but its just denial, there is a day when residents will apply for generals unfortunately. I do think many NRs will tire of complex systems, expensive applications and LONG waits but overall residents may impact system drastically worse. Kind of scary for future generations!

Humans are pretty bad at predicting trends, we tend to think the status quo will be the status quo forever.

Sometimes I wonder if the mountain west enthusiasm will blow itself out.

Maybe it won’t… but I already have a number of 90s transplant friends who are talking about leaving.

MA isn’t CO but no one has ever sat in six hours of traffic both ways to ski Vermont.

I imagine hunting could be similar. $2000 to have a 10% chance to see an elk, dealing with an orange army… might as well hunt your 6 whitetail tags.

 

[elkduds]

MA isn’t CO but no one has ever sat in six hours of traffic both ways to ski Vermont.

Loud powdah out theyah.

 

[Hydrophilic]

Humans are pretty bad at predicting trends

Sometimes really bad

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[texwest44]

Sometimes I wonder if the mountain west enthusiasm will blow itself out.

Nope, I don't think it can without some kind of reset switch. I don't feel like typing out a whole long thing, but to oversimplify my views on a very serious issue: the economics of land/home ownership have shifted too aggressively to a system that rewards gambling with land and housing; the livability situation in many "populated areas" has decreased dramatically; and last but certainly not least is that reality and consequence are now totally subjective and optional, which really grinds my gears the worst because without a sense of consequence we are so totally boned.

Between having fake reserves of money that are tied to your life-crushing debt value credit score and asset/equity value, and the fantasy worlds people live in on the internet and HGTV, we've entered a weird and dangerous time I've never seen before. It used to be a bad thing to drive yourself into a level of debt that you could never possibly escape from, and buy property you had no realistic means of financing, but once that all got turned into "credit" and "home/property equity", well there went the actual, literal farm. It became ugly, poorly built modern, stylish housing developments south of Kagy Road, instead.

Western property gambling is hotter than it's ever been, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

/rant

 

[DouglasR]

Humans are pretty bad at predicting trends, we tend to think the status quo will be the status quo forever.

Sometimes I wonder if the mountain west enthusiasm will blow itself out.

Maybe it won’t… but I already have a number of 90s transplant friends who are talking about leaving.

MA isn’t CO but no one has ever sat in six hours of traffic both ways to ski Vermont.

I imagine hunting could be similar. $2000 to have a 10% chance to see an elk, dealing with an orange army… might as well hunt your 6 whitetail tags.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/10-cities-with-the-worst-traffic-in-the-us%3fcontext=amp