LO Battle Ahead?

[Forkyfinder]

Yes but so is inflation. So is price increases. So is tag allocation changes.

I cant comment on the statistics as i dont apply for NM.

I can tell you - your math is pretty slanted. And - i get it. Im sure it is frustrating to want to hunt and not be able to. Ive got NR friends and family that the lack of certainty/cost hold them back from ever going hunting here with me.

At the same time comparing a 1 in 15 year (with many years of applying and getting it potentially) is different than a 4k LO tag - and ive looked at eplus enough to be skeptical that its 4k. Pm me if it is.

 

[Mallardsx2]

My bad. Ill own this thread derail.

The point remains. Im tired of some whiner doing a bad version of mathematical gymnastics to justify land owner tags. Those tags are a raw deal - even compared to one of the best states with a prestigous unit permit. Anyone who states otherwise clearly needs help investing.

Ive seen that nonsense touted around as fact for too long.

Sorry.

And for the record, I don't think you are simple or stupid. I was just playing around.

Cheers.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Sorry.

And for the record, I don't think you are simple or stupid. I was just playing around.

Cheers.

Its okay. I am kind of stupid. Thats probably why it offends me

I get why you guys are torqued about it. If i was king for a day - people couldnt apply for more than 2 states for any species. I think its a lot of guys applying in a lot of places - more than it is too many peopld.

At the same time - im coming in on this at the floor. I dont have points - so im so far behind in so many places its not worth playing. Sucks being never really able to hunt where you grew up - and even though a transferable tag fixes that - its not the right way.

 

[seeth07]

and even though a transferable tag fixes that - its not the right way

It would be extremely difficult to convince an entire legislature but there is a "right way" to do it where it would benefit everyone. The problem is the "benefit" to the wealthy, large ranch owners that would be feeding their opinions to the legislature isn't going to be the "maximum benefit" they could receive from such a thing. Both the LO tags in CO and NM are far from perfect and there are a lot of things that could be done to better the wildlife overall as well as the main user groups that benefit from more wildlife

 

[cgasner1]

No it's not fantasy land - its simple economics and mathematics.

First off, it is getting close to the same amount, not quite the same amount which should be scary to everyone and is the main driver for my argument.

Lets do apples to apples then if you want.

NM annual non-refundable portion of the high quality elk draw is $82. They only hold onto the up front tag cost for about 2 months and its only about $2 in interest lost so lets just ignore that.

The unit I'm going to use is the one in my example - the tag I drew and then had the opportunity to buy a voucher for. In 2024, 6 NR drew this tag which was the allotted NR cap and there were 200 first choice applicants. Sorry @Forkyfinder but I'm not quite so sure I'd call this a "very low end eplus tag" with only 6/200 draw odds. You can also go read my hunt recap if you want to see how great that elk hunt was.

At a 3% chance, the average person will take 34 years to get this tag. $82 x 34 years = $2788. Not quite the $3800 but its approaching and getting alarmingly close. I say this because all it takes is for that $82 application (which is honestly I think the lowest state out there to apply for elk?) to rise up to $112/year and it would match.

EDIT: Technically the draw odds may actually be worse as NM looks at 2nd and 3rd choices first. So at best, its 6/200 assuming that no 2nd or thirds are used when the first 1st choice apps are drawn.

The problem with your math is it only worries about your return. It doesn’t take into consideration the funding of the Fwp agencies. That money you spend goes to them to help. When you buy a lo the agency doesn’t benefit from that. You can argue all you want about damage and restoration but this won’t be enough for them to cover the costs

 

[Archer86]

No it's not fantasy land - its simple economics and mathematics.

First off, it is getting close to the same amount, not quite the same amount which should be scary to everyone and is the main driver for my argument.

Lets do apples to apples then if you want.

NM annual non-refundable portion of the high quality elk draw is $82. They only hold onto the up front tag cost for about 2 months and its only about $2 in interest lost so lets just ignore that.

The unit I'm going to use is the one in my example - the tag I drew and then had the opportunity to buy a voucher for. In 2024, 6 NR drew this tag which was the allotted NR cap and there were 200 first choice applicants. Sorry @Forkyfinder but I'm not quite so sure I'd call this a "very low end eplus tag" with only 6/200 draw odds. You can also go read my hunt recap if you want to see how great that elk hunt was.

At a 3% chance, the average person will take 34 years to get this tag. $82 x 34 years = $2788. Not quite the $3800 but its approaching and getting alarmingly close. I say this because all it takes is for that $82 application (which is honestly I think the lowest state out there to apply for elk?) to rise up to $112/year and it would match.

EDIT: Technically the draw odds may actually be worse as NM looks at 2nd and 3rd choices first. So at best, its 6/200 assuming that no 2nd or thirds are used when the first 1st choice apps are drawn.

Your hypothetical situation doesn't work when I can get a elk tag every year for around 1000 bucks as a nr or less if I decide to do a cow tag.

Your trying to paint a worest case scenario in wyoming. with a unit that takes 13 years to get in wyoming it will sell for for much more then 4k if it went to a transferable landowner tag.

 

[seeth07]

with a unit that takes 13 12 years to get in wyoming it will sell for for much more then 4k if it went to a transferable landowner tag.

are you aware of what a 12 point unit now looks like after all the point creep shifts over the last few years? I haven't logged the 25 results yet but

54-9 took 11 in 2024 - resident random draw was 87.88% - hardly a primo tag.
23-1 took 11, 19.09% resident random
108-1 took 12, 27.72% resident random
63-2 took 13, 48.84% resident random
55-1 took 13, 25.3% resident random
38-9 took 13, 21.11% resident random

 

[seeth07]

here are a bunch more:

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

The problem with your math is it only worries about your return. It doesn’t take into consideration the funding of the Fwp agencies. That money you spend goes to them to help. When you buy a lo the agency doesn’t benefit from that. You can argue all you want about damage and restoration but this won’t be enough for them to cover the costs

Simple. Make the price the LO pays for the tag from the G&F the same as the NR tag fee. The LO can then pass that cost on to whoever buys the tag from them, should he desire to sell it. I would argue that LO tags are a gift from the Residents of the State, same as NR tags, and should be valued as such. Particularly if the LO desires to sell it.

 

[seeth07]

none of those are in the top 20 resident random draw - a much better indicator of highly sought after public land hunts IMO than anything else. 92 total bull elk hunt options to pick from

 

[Archer86]

are you aware of what a 12 point unit now looks like after all the point creep shifts over the last few years? I haven't logged the 25 results yet but

54-9 took 11 in 2024 - resident random draw was 87.88% - hardly a primo tag.
23-1 took 11, 19.09% resident random
108-1 took 12, 27.72% resident random
63-2 took 13, 48.84% resident random
55-1 took 13, 25.3% resident random
38-9 took 13, 21.11% resident random

I am very aware and I am also aware of the quality of some of those tags they would sell for much more then 4k. So I am guessing you have hunted all those units specifically 54-9 since you say hardly a primo tag? I live close to that area and ride horses in it frequently my opinion is very different then yours on that one

 

[seeth07]

I am very aware and I am also aware of the quality of some of those tags they would sell for much more then 4k. So I am guessing you have hunted all those units specifically 54-9 since you say hardly a primo tag? I live close to that area and ride horses in it frequently my opinion is very different then yours on that one

my comment was only in regards to the fact that a resident had a 87.88% chance to draw that tag and nothing more. The value of a LO voucher would be directly related to demand

 

[belshawelk]

Help me what I am missing. Being serious not causing fight.

IF the tags numbers for LO ore not increased, why does anyone care of they sell tags? Its their land, they have all the expenses and many time ( not always) provide habitat for critters.

If someone wants to pay 20,30K for an elk hunt who cares? The tags are already allotted to LO.

I get LO tags and let people come hunt my property. I don't make anyone pay ( they have to be with me). Is that any better than charging someone? I do provide all kinds of habitat for elk and deer. Spend my own money ( not a farm or agriculture). Should I not get tags?

 

[hank4elk]

No worries at all. Lots of strong opinions in here, some good data, and it's been a pretty good convo so far.
I just don't want it going from people talking about eachother's IQs to other posters mothers...

Old dumb mutha here, or so I've been told.
Only blown through WY twice in my life. Literally.

Never drew an elk tag in CA with them all around me. 19 points no good for even a cow tag. 45 years.
So I bought a Tule cow tag from a rancher buddy. $800. Filled the freezer.

2009 I retired and moved to NM. Sept. I had a NR Pecos bull tag and by the time I got home in Oct. with a tag filled, NMG&F had me signed into E-plus and 6 elk tags. There were a good number of elk here. I believed in the system and helping elk numbers grow.
There are 2-3 times the number now. Draw tags up in this unit. But hard to draw now.

The water on this little place helps a lot. I might get a couple tags this year.
I do not know the WY situation. Think it's much like other western states now. Lots of NR landowners. Big ranches.

I think NM should only allow RESIDENT ranch owners apply for E-plus. And only if ranch is viable. If a NR owned ranch opened up to public, they get a couple tags. OH, and the full amount paid should be known and taxed to benefit wildlife.
Maybe the big $ will help NM wildlife. Maybe the water will not be turned off ....maybe.

 

[Archer86]

here are a bunch more:
View attachment 375275

Another sign you dont know much about wyoming elk hunting when alot of these tags would sell for much more then 4k

 

[Bighorner]

Help me what I am missing. Being serious not causing fight.

IF the tags numbers for LO ore not increased, why does anyone care of they sell tags? Its their land, they have all the expenses and many time ( not always) provide habitat for critters.

If someone wants to pay 20,30K for an elk hunt who cares? The tags are already allotted to LO.

There is not a cap on LO tags. Their tags come from the larger R and NR tag pools. LO take tags off the top before the draw occurs. This means LO could take every tag for a unit and leave zero tags for the general public.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I’m getting the impression you aren’t totally familiar with how these work.

In addition to being able to use them DIY on public land, they also open up private land to public use.

I don’t factor the percentage of people being for or against something into my personal calculus. That’s how echo chambers are born.

The price is $10,000 for deer and 12,000 to 15,000 for elk in my area.
Its a tool for wealthy hunters too buy the tags I will never get a chance to hunt.
Landowner tags are actually a tool for those hunters to get exclusive rights on ranches that have always been open.
I have been locked off of a lot of ranches because "sorry I sold xyz an elk tag and he requested I give him exclusive hunting rights to my deeded property"
You are either nieve and misinformed or pissing down our backs and saying the crops really need this rain.

 

[longtail55]

Help me what I am missing. Being serious not causing fight.

IF the tags numbers for LO ore not increased, why does anyone care of they sell tags? Its their land, they have all the expenses and many time ( not always) provide habitat for critters.

If someone wants to pay 20,30K for an elk hunt who cares? The tags are already allotted to LO.

and could benefit the public land DIY hunter by having more hunting pressure on the private grounds that are next to public.

 

[belshawelk]

There is not a cap on LO tags. Their tags come from the larger R and NR tag pools. LO take tags off the top before the draw occurs. This means LO could take every tag for a unit and leave zero tags for the general public.

Got it. Oregon does not do that. As a LO you may not even get tags. They are not guaranteed in all units. Trophy units LO tags may only come every 4-5 years. Numbers are set.

 

[Treeshark]

There is not a cap on LO tags.

True, but also changeable.