Litter or Stealing?

[rbinhood]

Regardless, glad the junk isn’t there any more. A year is much longer than most regulations require to establish abandonment.

If it's junk, trash, or abandoned because it's been there longer than most regulations require to establish abandonment, a person can't be charged with stealing it because by definition, they are cleaning up trash, litter, or abandoned property.
I don't know where you got your law degree, but a public official is not the only one with authority to remove it. The general public has a right, and I would argue, a moral obligation to clean up trash, litter, and abandoned property left on public lands.
I have a friend who is a retired State Patrol officer who made a transfer mid career and became a conservation warden. He told me that he personally knows of many guns and weapons that were confiscated over the years that never made it to the evidence room, or got disposed of at public auction. The fact that someone is a government official doesn't make them immune from possible involvement in wrong doing.

 

[rbinhood]

Theft
45-6-301. Theft. (1) A person commits the offense of theft when the person purposely or knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over property of the owner and:

Who is the owner of trash or abandoned property? To charge theft, you would have to have an owner claiming ownership of the property involved, and abandoned property means the owner has relinquished any ownership interest in the property involved by abandoning it. No less authority than the U.S. Supreme Court has authorized warrantless garbage searches because once it is garbage, there is no loner a protected property interest in it.
To be clear, I agree that to be entirely risk free of being falsely accused, the best bet would be to leave the property where it was. The OP simply asked for opinions on whether he'd picked up litter, or stolen someone's property. I don't think it's a black/white answer. See my post above about putting blind faith in the honesty of government officials.

 

[LopeHunter]

This raft had been hanging in a tree for over a year near a lake where I elk hunt. Yesterday I decided it was becoming more like litter than someone’s cache. I debated within myself, but looking at the cardboard degrade it seemed another year the raft rubber would likely be next. I’ve left it there the half dozen times I’ve past it in the last year. What do you all think? Did I remove litter or did I steal someone’s property? If this is anyone’s on here let me know where you had it stashed and I’ll gladly return it.

I applaud your efforts. No need to leave contact info. That person should have left contact info.

There are rules re leaving private property on public property. I hate seeing crap on public property. Waterholes in AZ in elk country resemble a yard sale of neglected eyesores packed in by people seeking to establish “ownership” of said place. I say “people” as this desecration is not by anyone I want to share a campfire with, ever. The motto “...and leave only footprints” is sadly not popular in AZ.

 

[seeth07]

No. It means if owner of said property decided to pursue legal action, a private citizen cannot claim their defense as enforcing an abandoned property regulation.

So its just the land owner that can do this then? The actual owner in this example of the raft couldn't actually pursue legal action of theft then against the person that removed it?

 

[lastlight]

Litter!

 

[Dan O]

Who is the owner of trash or abandoned property? To charge theft, you would have to have an owner claiming ownership of the property involved, and abandoned property means the owner has relinquished any ownership interest in the property involved by abandoning it. No less authority than the U.S. Supreme Court has authorized warrantless garbage searches because once it is garbage, there is no loner a protected property interest in it.
To be clear, I agree that to be entirely risk free of being falsely accused, the best bet would be to leave the property where it was. The OP simply asked for opinions on whether he'd picked up litter, or stolen someone's property. I don't think it's a black/white answer. See my post above about putting blind faith in the honesty of government officials.

TITLE 45. CRIMES
CHAPTER 6. OFFENSES AGAINST PROPERTY
Part 3. Theft and Related Offenses
Theft Of Lost Or Mislaid Property
45-6-302. Theft of lost or mislaid property. (1) A person who obtains control over lost or mislaid property commits the offense of theft when the person:
(a) knows or learns the identity of the owner or knows, is aware of, or learns of a reasonable method of identifying the owner;
(b) fails to take reasonable measures to restore the property to the owner; and
(c) has the purpose of depriving the owner permanently of the use or benefit of the property.
(2) A person convicted of theft of lost or mislaid property shall be fined not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a period not to exceed 6 months.
History: En. 94-6-303 by Sec. 1, Ch. 513, L. 1973; R.C.M. 1947, 94-6-303; amd. Sec. 1667, Ch. 56, L. 2009.

Well here is another section of Montana MCA that may be applicable. I'm sorry you have experience with a jurisdiction that has a bad apple. I spent 28 year's as a Deputy Sheriff in Central Montana so I speak from experience. One example of leaving gear in the back country longer than it's legal, aka stashed. One of the guys that worked with me left gear to be used later. The USFS LEO got wind of it and gathered it up. Upon confirming the owner he was issued a citation which the fine was paid and then had his gear returned along with a good education.
What I'm saying is no matter the good intentions or what makes sense at the time is not always the best way to do it. The OP should turn the gear over to local law enforcement. It's the right thing to do. Doing the what if's or maybe's is what lawyers use to make their career's good.
Dan

 

[rbinhood]

I spent 28 year's as a Deputy Sheriff in Central Montana so I speak from experience.

I've spent 36 years working in the criminal justice system. I also speak from experience.
I'm not sure we hold different opinions, as much as we are addressing the subtle shades of gray that present with the OP's original question. You will note that I said the safest bet is to simply leave the property where it was, and not touch it.
Years ago, I had property stolen that was left behind for a week in a remote part of a wilderness area. My sister-in-law was murdered during the opening weekend of the Wisconsin deer season. We had canoed into the middle of a swamp, and the river froze the first night we were in there. The afternoon of the deer season's second day, a friend who knew where I was hunting walked in and told me of the family emergency. My instructions were to get out fast and join my wife who was with family 300 miles away. There was not time or the ability to gather all of the gear we had canoed in with, just enough time to get my personal essentials out. I came back the following weekend to discover that a thief had helped themselves to some of the more expensive pieces of my gear. My property was not lost or abandoned, but left behind for 5 days in an emergency situation. We had a pretty good idea who stole the property, but couldn't prove it. Pisses me off to this day.

 

[Dan O]

I've spent 36 years working in the criminal justice system. I also speak from experience.
I'm not sure we hold different opinions, as much as we are addressing the subtle shades of gray that present with the OP's original question. You will note that I said the safest bet is to simply leave the property where it was, and not touch it.
Years ago, I had property stolen that was left behind for a week in a remote part of a wilderness area. My sister-in-law was murdered during the opening weekend of the Wisconsin deer season. We had canoed into the middle of a swamp, and the river froze the first night we were in there. The afternoon of the deer season's second day, a friend who knew where I was hunting walked in and told me of the family emergency. My instructions were to get out fast and join my wife who was with family 300 miles away. There was not time or the ability to gather all of the gear we had canoed in with, just enough time to get my personal essentials out. I came back the following weekend to discover that a thief had helped themselves to some of the more expensive pieces of my gear. My property was not lost or abandoned, but left behind for 5 days in an emergency situation. We had a pretty good idea who stole the property, but couldn't prove it. Pisses me off to this day.

Sorry to hear of the tragedy in your family, that's a terrible cross to bear for any family. I hope the suspect was brought to justice. Even then it cannot stop the hurt and loss to your family.
I would be pissed to if my gear was taken like your gear was.
I agree with this.
"You will note that I said the safest bet is to simply leave the property where it was, and not touch it."
I would add that I feel he should have notified the local LEO and land owner and let them handle it.
Okay enough beating the dead horse here, lets move on.
Dan

 

[Hunting Wife]

So its just the land owner that can do this then? The actual owner in this example of the raft couldn't actually pursue legal action of theft then against the person that removed it?

No. Read it again. The property owner being the owner of the raft. Not sure where private landowner came into the equation. We are talking about public land.

No law degree, just a couple decades working for public land agencies and telling you how we (or more precisely, our LEOs) do things and the recommendations they give the public regarding picking up potentially abandoned property on public land. Sometimes items are left on public under a valid permit. Sometimes it’s not abandoned and someone left it for reasons beyond their control and will be back looking for it. Sometimes it is actually abandoned. Is the public in a better position to make those determinations, or the agency reps/LEOs?

Not sure why some people are getting so hot under the collar about this. I’m out.

 

[COEngineer]

Caching on FS land is illegal and I have no moral qualms with you removing it, especially after that length of time.

 

[Pucky Freak]

If you’re going to remove it as trash, which I would argue as common sense that it is, then treat it as trash, pack it out and discard it. If it’s not “trash”, then it is someone else’s abandoned property. Turn it in to the authority that has jurisdiction. Yeah, very high possibility it won’t be discarded or auctioned like it’s supposed to, but not your job to be a vigilante and avoid doing the right thing because many gov workers are corrupt. Call the authority and ask them to come get it, or just report it and they decide what to do, I think that’s silly. It’s our job as public land owners to clean up after ourselves, not pay someone else to do it.

In all the places I’ve lived, there has been no provision in the law to “acquire and keep” for one’s own use, including selling, property that’s been abandoned, or for that matter stashed on public land. Maybe you can justify doing so in your head, but the problem is there is always a tiny chance it could catch up with you and you’d be on the wrong side of the law.

Tons of people in our country with huge amounts of disposable income, and new sporting goods abandoned in the wild is all too common, as they change their mind about their outdoor trip and just walk or ride out empty-handed, since that’s more convenient than packing out gear. I’m sure many pack out anyways due to being ethical, but it’s no financial loss to just abandon the item.

 

[Addicting]

I find this thread interesting. I was a Leo for a brief time and know that found property needs to be turned in. In the last year I’ve found a expensive drill and tennis racket on the side of the road. I wanted to teach my kids about doing the right thing when no one is looking. We made it a point to take it to the Sheriff’s Office. In both instances the Sheriff’s Office didn’t take a report and the property had disappeared when I called after 45 days. In my state we take possession of it if it is not claimed.

After, calling the LT in charge of where I turned it, the property was tracked down. He told me it would be a couple days before he could produce it and the SGT would drop it off at my house.

Glad we did the right thing but it is obvious that at least in my county the law is not readily followed.

Glad you picked it up, turn it in and see how long before you can claim it.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Thanks for all the replies. I’ll just drop it off at the USFS, it has a small leak in one of the chambers so it’s less tempting to keep it lol. Oddly enough there was a receipt for some beer and other groceries in it from July 2020, but was from a city hours away

 

[rbinhood]

Thanks for all the replies. I’ll just drop it off at the USFS, it has a small leak in one of the chambers so it’s less tempting to keep it lol. Oddly enough there was a receipt for some beer and other groceries in it from July 2020, but was from a city hours away

Ah, and now to further complicate matters, we establish that it had a leak. And the receipt suggests the true owner might live so far away, that there was no intent to return to salvage his leaky raft, that perhaps was left behind for any of a variety of reasons. A few new facts, that perhaps change the analysis? If nothing else, this has been an interesting study in people's opinions on the original post. At the end of the day, it's Big Sky's choice to do what he feels is best, and I respect his decision.

 

[Dave N]

Thanks for all the replies. I’ll just drop it off at the USFS, it has a small leak in one of the chambers so it’s less tempting to keep it lol. Oddly enough there was a receipt for some beer and other groceries in it from July 2020, but was from a city hours away

I might be missing something. It's been out there a year, but there was a receipt from last month in it?

 

[VikingsGuy]

While property laws vary from state to state, the general rule of thumb is that if a person in a location where they have permission to be takes personal property that has been lost, mislaid or abandoned by another person, the “finder” owns the property over all others except the original owner. (Some states also give a priority claim to the land owner where found, and if a person is on the job, it is their employer that has the right.) The finder has no duty to discover the owner, but if they know or find out they must allow the original owner to recover it. Hence the criminal statute cited above knowledge of the original owner as a required element.

Also, when applying this general rule, “abandoned” does not mean merely left behind with an intent to return for it - it means purposely relinquishing any claim of ownership. If someone had left with the intent to return (and remembered where it was) then the person who takes it commits a theft. But if the owner is unknown then their intent is an open fact to be determined in light of the circumstances - a fact that would be decided by a jury if it came to that.

So, if the circumstances reasonably suggest abandonment, lost or mislaid then you can take it, but if you are wrong about those facts then you may have committed theft. And, even if lost or mislaid, if you find out the original owner you have to give it back. This leaves many to choose a practical, zero risk, solution - give to a LEO and move along - no need to worry about original party’s intent or follow up.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

While property laws vary from state to state, the general rule of thumb is that if a person in a location where they have permission to be takes personal property that has been lost, mislaid or abandoned by another person, the “finder” owns the property over all others except the original owner. (Some states also give a priority claim to the land owner where found, and if a person is on the job, it is their employer that has the right.) The finder has no duty to discover the owner, but if they know or find out they must allow the original owner to recover it. Hence the criminal statute cited aboven requiring knowledge of the original owner as a required element.

Also, when applying this general rule, “abandoned” does not mean mearly left behind with an intent to return for it - it means purposely relinquishing any claim of ownership. If someone had left with the intent to return (and remembered where it was) then the person who takes it commits a theft. But if the owner is unknown then their intent is an open fact to be determined in light of the circumstances - a fact that would be decided by a jury if it came to that.

So, if the circumstances reasonably suggest abandonment, lost or mislaid then you can take it, but if you are wrong about those facts then you may have committed theft. And, even if lost or mislaid, if you find out the original owner you have to give it back. This leaves many to choose a practical, zero risk, solution - give to a LEO and move along - no need to worry about original party’s intent or follow up.

Great explanation. But you may want to go ahead a state where you got your law degree. Apparently that's a thing on this thread. Lol

 

[VikingsGuy]

But you may want to go ahead a state where you got your law degree.

Given my brain-fart yesterday about 80% lowers, many are asking that very question

 

[Big Sky Guy]

I might be missing something. It's been out there a year, but there was a receipt from last month in it?

Correct. They must have used it this summer and put it back in the box, have no clue why they would throw a receipt for their beer in there lol.

 

[Dave N]

Well, now it's starting to sound more like they're just using that spot for a storage locker. Use it last year, leave it, use it again this year. Maybe even more uses in between. Still wrong.