mevertsen
Well-known member
Its a discussion forum remember.
Chime in for what I put in the OP.
List the native wildlife species you deem acceptable in the world.
- Thread starter mevertsen
- Start date
Chime in for what I put in the OP.
It's a great question, @mevertsen. I tend to fall in with El in terms of making sure the genie you're tryin to put back in the bottle is the right fit.
I don't know that you can extricate the native from the non-native at this point. Do we depopulate elk herds in the east because they're Rocky Mtn Elk, and will likely compete with native whitetail?
Fisheries are easier since they're closed systems and the impacts of non-natives has a more outsized effect, IMO. When I was working on Sage Grouse, the company line was "what's good for the bird is good for the herd." That line came from ranchers in CO or WY, I believe.
As it relates to native predators, ungulates, etc, then I think it's a more anthropogenic issue than a wildlife one. Should we favor one over the other? I think that's been the main focus of humanity since we could understand how to cultivate grain or focus fire on the landscape to create better forage conditions for favored species: Humans tamed the wolf for companionship, cats tamed humans to be slaves, and we all made the oxen and the horse our forced labor from once wild animals.
If the issue is truly about animal populations and ensuring they don't blink out, then we have those tools already in this nation. Grouse, for example, have had a ton of funds thrown at them, lots of work around restoration of grassland/sage brush steppe, etc. Lots of damage done through habitat loss and fracturing.
Perhaps the answer is less "what species deserve to be here," and is more along the lines of "how do we create the conditions we want for all species."
I don't know that you can extricate the native from the non-native at this point. Do we depopulate elk herds in the east because they're Rocky Mtn Elk, and will likely compete with native whitetail?
Fisheries are easier since they're closed systems and the impacts of non-natives has a more outsized effect, IMO. When I was working on Sage Grouse, the company line was "what's good for the bird is good for the herd." That line came from ranchers in CO or WY, I believe.
As it relates to native predators, ungulates, etc, then I think it's a more anthropogenic issue than a wildlife one. Should we favor one over the other? I think that's been the main focus of humanity since we could understand how to cultivate grain or focus fire on the landscape to create better forage conditions for favored species: Humans tamed the wolf for companionship, cats tamed humans to be slaves, and we all made the oxen and the horse our forced labor from once wild animals.
If the issue is truly about animal populations and ensuring they don't blink out, then we have those tools already in this nation. Grouse, for example, have had a ton of funds thrown at them, lots of work around restoration of grassland/sage brush steppe, etc. Lots of damage done through habitat loss and fracturing.
Perhaps the answer is less "what species deserve to be here," and is more along the lines of "how do we create the conditions we want for all species."
mevertsen
Well-known member
This is the kind of stuff im wanting.
It is perplexing to me.
The history, what we've done as society, why we've done it.
Where.do we.go from here?
What's more important.
I put some extreme arguments in there, yes. It was on purpose.
But it also can have a valid argument.
Horses and goats for example and articles I've posted before.
Has that argument been made for chikar that they are detrimental?
Maybe one could come in the future?
Weve got a mess. It will never be like it was before.
We have the here and now.
And we have history to learn from.
mevertsen
Well-known member
As I typed that last, I opened my.mailbox to find this years big game regulations.
This is the cover story.
This is the cover story.
According to the USDA, chukar can have negative impacts: https://www.fs.usda.gov/database/feis/animals/bird/alch/all.html
Here's the nut of truth.
We don't have to make the mistakes of the past, we will likely make those mistakes again, and our history tells us how to recover from those mistakes.
Here's the nut of truth.
We don't have to make the mistakes of the past, we will likely make those mistakes again, and our history tells us how to recover from those mistakes.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
At the risk of playing footsie with a line of thinking that can be perceived poorly but shouldn't be - why the white man?
The extinction/extirpation of piles of incredible megafauna seem the result of man's arrival on this continent, and actually man's arrival on many geographies across the world and skin color didn't figure in. In 1492, or as Norwegians know, 500 years earlier, those first white men arrived on a continent stripped of some of its most compelling wildlife by other men who didn't happen to be white. It just took them longer. I'm aware folks argue about this, but it's at the very least incredibly plausible.
When it comes to Native/Non-Native, I do think we should have a native-first approach, simply because those are the animals least likely to introduce externalities we can't anticipate. That said, the table is already set in so many regards, and we must deal with, and celebrate, what is.
I look at my children when they first started fishing. Their human brains had no knowledge of the concept of native/non-native species, and on the end of their lines and in pictures I took, to them a brook trout in a Montana mountain stream was very easily seen as cosmic perfection - and I think that says something - and I think their brains were not wrong.
I just sent my comments in to the Montana Fish and Game Commission to more aggressively manage certain native predators under some newly proposed regulations. I think many times, aggressive management is conflated with eradication. I want and will participate in one, but not the other. Not saying that is what you are doing here, but I do hear people doing it often.
At base it's an is/ought problem.
El Jason
Well-known member
We should eradicate stupid people before we eradicate chukars.
mevertsen
Well-known member
White man? Not sure why I used that term specifically. Other than to indicate difference between native American.
I think the term westward expansion might be more appropriate.
Just got to thinking of the bison and what was done to them, and what they will never be again.
Tell us who are these "many" people calling for the eradication of ALL predators?
mevertsen
Well-known member
People I've actually encountered while lion hunting.
People actually saying "kill them all" if someone sees my hounds, or know I'm a lion hunter and I encountered them in the field or in town.
Discussion on another forum, where I cross posted this, literally has a comment saying "kill them all"
Utah going to a year round, no tag required season for lions to save the deer.
Idaho changing their season to year round, 2 lions per year, similar to Nevada.
All to save the deer.
Thermal predator hunters at the last NDOW commission meeting saying the only reason deer are doing well in Lincoln County is because of the thermal coyote hunters.
Do people truly mean "kill them all" , or think its actually possible? no clue, but, I do take words literally.
So, which native species is more important?
Foundation for Wildlife Management
Nope. That’s not accurate. They are not calling for eradication of all predators.
Which one do they like?
Nevada has had a year round lion season for as long as I can remember. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of lions because the quota has rarely been reached, and only in a few units. Never the entire statewide quota of about 250 per year.
In almost 60 years of hunting I have only seen 3 lions. We have found many lion kills out in the hills though.
That being said I do not believe in the "kill them all" mentality.
In almost 60 years of hunting I have only seen 3 lions. We have found many lion kills out in the hills though.
That being said I do not believe in the "kill them all" mentality.
I’m not sure which ones they like.
I’m just saying that your comment about them calling for the ERADICATION of all predators is not accurate.
They have been very involved in getting and keeping wolf management methods in place. From day one they have been about managing wolves. Not eradicating all predators.
You should check into them a little bit.
My comment? You should check the thread history.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I've never opened a chukar craw and not found cheatgrass seeds. Once the cheatgrass is eradicated, then maybe we can talk chukar. Until then, keep your hands off the bandit devil birds; they're helping by eating the cheatgrass. And cheatgrass does a helluva lot more to negatively impact our native species than all the introduced game birds in the world.
it's a completely irrational discussion. We can't stop the spread of invasive species, or prevent more from being introduced, we damn sure can't eradicate many that already have a foot hold. MT goats, yeah, sure, big whoop. Tell me how American shad on the west coast goes, you get that under control and I'll tip my cap.
it's a completely irrational discussion. We can't stop the spread of invasive species, or prevent more from being introduced, we damn sure can't eradicate many that already have a foot hold. MT goats, yeah, sure, big whoop. Tell me how American shad on the west coast goes, you get that under control and I'll tip my cap.
mevertsen
Well-known member
I know its an irrational discussion.
Thats my whole point.
Just like I've heard for over 20 years that if we just kill a few more predators, then the deer will come back. Deer are toast.
We are destroying habitat faster than anything.
But, we keep a vendetta on predators. Utah and Idaho recent changes are prime examples.
I am really starting to believe pur true available habitat for native species is way less than what we even have now.
mevertsen
Well-known member
Im glad you dont, but if you had a dog box in your truck and hunted lions on the regular, you would hear about how killing them all wpuld somehow save the deer.
To a point when I got my current truck, I put a low profile box in, to minimize those encounters because I wanted to throat punch the next guy,
My Toyota has a dog box, but it doesn’t go to town, so I dont worry about it.
Hydrophilic
Well-known member
Context is important here.
What is a native species?
a plant or animal that originates and lives naturally in a specific geographic area, without human introduction.
A lot of plants we consider native were introduced by people, so by our own definition they aren't native. There is a lot more to that conversation, it's actually pretty interesting and thought provoking.
Framing this as native vs non-native falls into the false dilemma fallacy, and I'm not sure I've ever seen productive conversations from that angle. It's not native or non-native. It's native and non-native. I can show you many different examples of native wildlife relying on non native wildlife/plants. I have personal pictures of native caterpillars utilizing non native plants as host plants, research articles documenting the same. One of my favorite hummingbirds keeps me company year round because they followed non native plants up the coast. Hundreds of examples. Not all are bad, some are.
It's a new world.
If you'd be open to it, I'd highly recommend giving these two books a try.
Where Do Camels Belong? By Ken Thompson
Tending the Wild by M Kat Anderson
What is a native species?
a plant or animal that originates and lives naturally in a specific geographic area, without human introduction.
A lot of plants we consider native were introduced by people, so by our own definition they aren't native. There is a lot more to that conversation, it's actually pretty interesting and thought provoking.
Framing this as native vs non-native falls into the false dilemma fallacy, and I'm not sure I've ever seen productive conversations from that angle. It's not native or non-native. It's native and non-native. I can show you many different examples of native wildlife relying on non native wildlife/plants. I have personal pictures of native caterpillars utilizing non native plants as host plants, research articles documenting the same. One of my favorite hummingbirds keeps me company year round because they followed non native plants up the coast. Hundreds of examples. Not all are bad, some are.
It's a new world.
If you'd be open to it, I'd highly recommend giving these two books a try.
Where Do Camels Belong? By Ken Thompson
Tending the Wild by M Kat Anderson
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