Killing Female Lions

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Cuban,

Give me a call or send me the pic. I'll get in posted for you.

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[bcat]

If theres as many lions in New Mexico as you have described it shouldnt be a problem even for the weekend warriors to find a Tom to chase. We have the weekend warriors here too, and now and then they even catch one, and when they do they kill it no matter what it is. Then we have some Outfitters that just dont care and they are paying for it now. Many are selling their dogs, because they hunted all season and didnt find a track. We have one good unit left here, actually two close by but the area they did the "STUDY" in has been cleaned out. There are a few straglers left in it too, but last year the quota was 25, 14 females and two toms were killed!!! What does this tell ya, the year before the quota was 25, 13 females and 12 toms were killed. The year before that the quota was 10, 8 toms and 2 females were killed. You can see by the first figures, the season never closed and the quota wasnt met. Out of approxamately 25 lion hunters in the valley and a few from out of the valley, the quota didnt fill!!!! You figure it out. They dropped the quota back to 7 this year, 6 females and one tom was taken!!!! Actually it was 4 females 2 kittens and a tom. The kittens I heard were counted in the quota that died after a female was taken illegally!! bcat

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[Cuban]

bcat, in terms of male/female kill ratio and the drop in quota it doesnt sound like the lion population is doing as well as you would like to see it in your area. Do you agree with the drop in quota, is there truely less lions now? If so, it would seem that the number of females taken in that zone is making a big effect on population. So what do you do about it? I know you are not in favor of taking females, but the harvest ratios show alot of them are being taken,How do you get the rest of the guys in the "business" and "weekend warriors"to look at the situation in the same way. Would you be in favor of a game regulation making it illegal to take females(at least in the zone you are talking about). Could a regulation like this even show any results. CUBAN

 

[bcat]

Md4me-How hunters view bears or lions make no difference. Its how the law reads!!!! Female bears with cubs at side are illegal to kill most places in North America. It is illegal to kill female lions with kittens at side to in most places, but rarely are they at her side. This is the BIG difference between bears and lions. How the hunter views them has little to do with it. If it were illegal to kill females in some areas, they would view it differently tho!!!!! Just like they do the bears!! If ya want to wipe the lions out in an area, just dont put any female quota on with the lion quota. Lions like grizzly bears can be exterminated in a hurry!!! They are not like coyotes and wolves. bcat

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[Bear Creek Adventures]

Cuban's female lion pic!

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"The worst advice you can give a person with a sour attitude is to be himself"
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[This message has been edited by Bear Creek Adventures (edited 02-21-2001).]

 

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Thanks for all the replies folks, let's keep this going. Let me add another angle to this. If we are considering this to be a "money issue" and not a "management issue" then I offer the following: From an outfitter's standpoint, my guided elk, deer, and bighorn sheep hunts make me 4-5 times the amount of money that my lion hunts make. So what is wrong with thinning out the lions to make for better elk, deer and sheep hunting even if it means that my lion hunts may suffer?

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[bcat]

I dont think its a money issue, I make way more on my other hunts than on lion hunts, just like you do. It is a management issue only!!! Some places may need to kill a few extra females, so be it, but I dont think the money has anything to do with it. It does however bother me to come across starving kittens......This is the issue with killing female lions and no other that I can see. If it has to be done to area where the lions are taking over thats one thing, but where populations are under control, I believe it should not be legal to take a female at all!!!!!! bcat

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[Bear Creek Adventures]

Bcat,

Point well taken. I don't doubt your opinion at all, I am just wondering why most states still allow the killing of female lions if what you are saying is true? Do you guys in WY have quotas for females that is separate from males? In NM the quota is for either sex.

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[bcat]

BCA-We have a quota in some areas that is like this. 20 lions with a female quota of 6. When the female quota is reached the season is over even if there is just one male killed. or twenty lions for instance if 15 males and 5 females were taken. It is a money issue with the State if thats what you meant!!! From the outfitters point of view maybe it is a money situation too, but to me its not the money its a healthy population of lions, not necessarily to chase or kill, but a decent population. I may hunt them , and love to chase them, but they are such a majestic creature, I hate to see them killed. The toms dont bother me too bad, but the females really bother me. We have taken females in the past years ago, but rarely ever do it anymore. Havent for several years, and hope not to in the future. I suppose if I were in a spot where they were just infested with them and I was relatively positive, they didnt have kittens somewhere, it would be tempting, but I really hate to see starving kittens. I guess I just love the animal so much, and respect them so much it just reaally hurts to see the little ones starve to death. Just my opinion, I am done crying about this subject, you'll have to get someone else to discuss it with ya. bcat

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[Cuban]

The way the Wyomong quota works makes good sense to me. I like it!

 

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Yeah, I think you guys are right. Maybe we should have that type of quota here. Only a certain number of females can be taken in an area and only a certain number of males. The preditor callers are not going to like it though. I guess that is more reason to use hounds in hunting them!!

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[Muledeer4me]

When I talked with Fish and Game here in Idaho they said we also have a quota on Female Lion's.So when that is reached then the area is shut down.He also said it is a VERY hot topic in this state and that they have no sure way of knowing just how many lions there are in a given area so alot of it is guess work and trying to please a wide group of people.Those that dont want any lion's and those that do.I have to say from seeing all of this and getting a chance to see all the different side's I do not think I could kill a female if I thought or knew she had cub's.But if it's legal in the state I could not get down on some else that decided to do so. Like wise I could not even kill a coyote and let the pup's STARVE.

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Debbie

 

[BuzzH]

I dont think killing female lions is a big deal as long as there is quotas. Montana allows females to be killed and the population is not being impacted negatively. I am also all for hunters choosing not to run cats with hounds and killing them during general seasons or during the hound season with calls or tracking or whatever. Not everyone wants to kill a lion with hounds. Montana has had the lion season open during the general big-game season and some are killed each year. The FWP limits the numbers killed, during the general season, to 10 percent of the district quota. The FWP has kept close tabs on the cats killed by chance during the general season. Their findings are that most of the cats killed were males, only one lactating female out of over 30 cats was killed. Also, most cats were shot at extremely close range average of 40-50 yards. Also, rarely is the 10 percent quota reached in any area. So, basically having the season open during the general big-game season has not had a negative impact on cats in Montana.

I know lots of houndsmen who have killed females, some with kittens. I also know several houndsmen whose dogs have killed young kittens. Hunting lions with hounds is not risk free and they have a much bigger impact on the cat population than the hunters that call them in or shoot them by chance.

 

[bcat]

Buzz I hate to say it but I CALL BS!!!!!! Only one lactating female!!! MAYBE LACTATING!!! SHEEEESH They only lactate for 8 weeks. But the kitten stays with the mother and is depenadant on the mother for 15 or 16 months!!! You cant tell me only one female was killed out of 30 by "on sight lion killers"...... I know out of 30 lions killed more than one of them was a female!!! Thats the biggest crock I ever heard!!!!!! We have treed ALOT of kittens in our day and NEVER have hurt ONE of them. I am not saying it doesnt happen but it has never happened to us and I have lost count of the kittens we have treed over the years. They are just like any other cat and climb a damn tree, when they hear the dogs coming. I doubt you are any kind of expert in the lion field anyway, and your statistics are a bunch of bullshit!!!! Just my opinion Buzz!!!!! It does come from experiance and not reading a book, or listening to what some biologist told me!!!! bcat

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[bcat]

Buzz, heres a kitten our dogs treed in a rockpile. The little 15 pound cat held off five dogs for over an hour till we could get to them!!!! They coulda reached up and plucked the kitten off the rock, if it were that easy, but they are vicious little critters. This cat would hiss and spit and swat at the dogs and then sit there and shiver!!!!!! He was scared to death but he held his own for an hour!!!!! This is why female lions should not be harvested in most areas!!!! bcat

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[BuzzH]

Bcat, cool pictures. I agree that hounds rarely kill kittens, but it does happen, according to the houndsmen I know. Yes, most of the 30 cats (killed in the first two seasons 1997/1998) were males, not sure of the exact figures, but it was around 20 out of 30. Of those only one was believed to have kittens, although like you state, it is hard to know for sure. Those were the figures, like it or not. Believe me, I have to sit through meeting after meeting listening to the houndsmen and the lion subject for hours on end.

They feel the same as you, that you should only be able to hunt lions with hounds. I disagree, always have and always will. I view it about the same as bow hunting versus muzzleloader, versus rifle hunting. Would it be right for bow hunters to say that elk should only be hunted with bows? I dont think so, nor do I think you should have to have and run hounds to kill a lion. Where I grew up, lions are pretty thick, and like I say the quotas are closely monitored along with the lion population. Honestly, of all the game animals in Montana, the lions are probably managed better than anything else. The FWP started with very low quotas and has slowly worked its way to higher quotas and now things are about right as far as harvest.

I will say though that if a person wants to call a lion or shoot them while hunting other species, that they try not to kill females with kittens. I dont think anybody wants to intentionally kill a female with kittens. By the way, I know a guy who has killed several lions without hounds, all males, and none with a call.

 

[bcat]

Buzz-I got to agree with ya on one thing. Hunters that hunt WITHOUT the use of dogs for lions have VERY LITTLE impact on lion populations!!!!! Althought they do add up. EVERY lion that was killed around here for the last ten years without the use of dogs,(for the exception of a big tom that was run over with a car) was a female!!!!! So what is wrong with this picture??? Lion hunters with dogs kill way more lions than those that luck onto them, or track them down on their hands and knees, or call them in!!! The odds are for sure in the lions favor. There is just NO WAY to tell the sex of a lion 40 or 50 yards away, when ya dont have time to do anything but shoot!!!!! Another interesting fact is over half of the lions killed by big game hunters (all females in this area), were illegallly taken, NO LICENCE WAS PURCHASED FIRST!!! Just making a rough guess, 50 percent of these females at least had kittens somewhere!!!!! 2 to 4 of them!!!!! I would have to see the real statistics on what you have said before I could swallow it hook line and sinker!!! I was born at night but it wasnt last night!! I find it hard to believe that 2/3rds of the lions were males!!!! Got any documentation on it Buzzzzzzz.

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[BuzzH]

Bcat, I dont have the proof right in front of me, but I could get it. Like I said, I dont know the exact numbers but it was about twenty males. I know this came as a shock to the houndsmen as well. All the cats have to be taken into the fish and game within I believe 48 hours of the kill. The FWP takes a tooth, determines if they are male or female, and so on. These numbers I quoted came directly from the harvest reports. So, take them for what they are worth. The houndsmen in attendance at that meeting didnt raise a fuss over the numbers, so I would say they are accurate.

Another thing to note is that the houndsmen kill way more females than the by chance hunters. I think its ok as long as females without kittens are killed and the populations are not damaged. The more hunters you have that buy lion tags, whether it be hound hunters or people just buying them in case they see one, it all adds up to support for lions and lion hunting. The houndsmen need all the support they can get. Anti's seem to be keen on banning hound hunting/cat hunting, so I think it makes more sense to have more people involved in lion hunting whether it be houndsmen or someone who calls or whatever. Thats my thinking on this subject.

 

[bcat]

Buzz-You are right on another topic!!! The anti's!!!!! THere are more bears than there are lions, WHy then do they not let ya kill sows with cubs???? The weekend warriors and the illegal outfitters, and the outfitters that simply dont like lions around, kill way more females than needs to be killed at least in this part of the country. While you are over in Laramie talk to Duggan from the University Lion Study they did in the snowy range!!! He is a good guy that has a habit of telling the truth about things even if it isnt the popular thing to do!!! I am really pissed that they did this study and let the population take such a hard hit with the female part of it. Not mad a Duggan, but mad that they did the study, and how it turned out!!! WASTED GOVERNMENT MONEY!!! MINE AND YOURS!!!! bcat

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[BuzzH]

Bcat, yeah its too bad they have to pull stupid crap like that. It would seem to me that lions are more scarce here than Montana. I could hardly keep lions out of my bobcat sets. I remember one day during lion season, while putting in our bobcat sets, we found 6 different sets of lion tracks, all is seperate drainages and not one had a houndsmen on it. These tracks were all less than 20-24 hours old, and this was right near the beginning of the season. Also, all were less than 30 miles from my front porch.

If hunting female lions is hurting a population, hell for that matter if killing males is hurting the population, I am not for it. Smart management is the key.

Whats your thoughts on only selecting the mature toms? I have herd and read that killing the older toms will increase the overall population because as you know the toms kill kittens when they get the chance. With fewer old toms, more kittens survive meaning higher cat densities. In some cases it would seem than killing the mature toms is a bad idea when controlling the population is a goal. One area near Missoula(damn near in the city limits) is like that. They encourage houndsmen to kill females and discourage killing mature toms.
Talk to you later. Buzz