Killing Female Lions

[Buckshot]

bcat,

You did the thing with my name again, "Buckshot" to "Bigshot". That's hilarious.....you're killing me!

That's quite a track record, many bobcats killed and not one female. Congratulations. I wish I had your eyesight/ability to sex them bobcats. Maybe someday, huh? And 6 sets of starving kittens. That's a lot.

I have to question the logic of your statement that I haven't spent much time behind my worthless dogs if I haven't seen a starving kitten. Are starving kitten sitings some sort of guage for how much time one has spent behind one's worthless dogs? All I know is that knowledge is based on experience, and based on the experience of myself and of other houndsmen I know well, we've never seen a starving kitten. And some of us have actually spent quite a bit of time following worthless dogs.

Regarding how much time kittens spend with females, I guess that's just something we can disagree on. You've based your opinion on your experience and I've based mine on my own. No big deal.

I do take exception to the last third of your response, in which you accuse me of being unethical. I don't see how it applies here however, so I responded to your accusations under the Tanglefoot thread and won't go into it again.

I wasn't trying to fool anyone, just questioned a few things that didn't add up. Thanks for clearing up some of that, but I'd appreciate it if we could stay somewhat close to the topic instead of making wild accusations.

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Clint Gray
Buckshot Outfitting
http://www.angelfire.com/id/buckhunting

 

[rthrbhntng]

This has been some interesting reading but I for one would have liked it better if Bcat had stopped his snivelling, name calling back in post #29 where he said "Just my opinion, I am done crying about this subject, you'll have to get someone else to discuss it with ya." I would rather hear an educated discussion of the subject to help others form their opinion. I am no expert on lions but from reading this post I am sure that Bcat knows it all and even if you have first hand info from other houndsmen or G&F it doesn't mean a thing.
Steve

 

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Bcat,

I hate to say it, but I call BS on you!! How can you tell the difference between a male and female bobcat in the tree? I have treed a few in my hunting career so far and it is usually hard to see the CAT in the tree, much less tell what sex it is.

And to say that you have seen SIX SETS of orphaned lion kittens??? I know you think I'm a newby at hunting, but in my 15 years of hound hunting, I have NEVER seen lion kittens unless they were in the same tree as their mother. I would think that if a person killed a female that was nursing, they would be able to tell this by closely inspecting the lion after the kill. How many females have you killed that were nursing? Maybe this is how you know there are orphaned kittens left in the woods??

One other thing, why are you so concerned about the orphaned lion kittens, when I have heard you say in other threads that the only thing better than a dead coyote is a gut shot coyote (or something to that effect). Why is it ok for female coyotes to leave orphans after being killed, but it is not ok to leave orphaned lions? Maybe you use the same meathod for determining the sex of a coyote before you gut shoot it that you use on bobcats?

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"The worst advice you can give a person with a sour attitude is to be himself"
[email protected]

 

[GatoMan]

Bcat, you sound like another fella I know....lmao....always catchin "Trophy Toms" and "Tom bobcats"..... Would you please share your secret to never killing a female bobcat? Maybe you know a secret or something, cause I sure the heck can't tell the difference from a 25 pd female to a 25 pd tom when there 60 ft up a yellow pine. You sure are a funny fellar, cause I know I sure get a good chuckle out of reading your posts.

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GatoMan

 

[bcat]

I guess all you arseholes will have to go back to kindergarten and learn how to read!!! Surely ya didnt graduate high school and not be able to read better than that!!!! I said and I quote "I have never killed a female bobcat" I didnt say I sexed the bobcats!!!!! What a bunch of arseholes!!!! And illiterate arseholes to boot!!!! Beqar Creek if ya use five fingers and one more from the other hand it will add up to six!!!! ANd yes I have killed two female lions in my life. We have taken two for clients over the years, but I learned from experiance in this area is is not a good thing to do. One of my females was a barron female and the other one I dont know. Probably orphaned some kittens. It was a very large female and we had trailed it for many miles on foot mostly, and we took it. I have been hunting lions for many years and sure enuff didnt fall off the turnip truck last night. I am not always right but I when it comes to lions, I think I know a hell of alot more than the rest of you jerks that have tried to make something out of my observations. We dont have as many bobcats around here as we used to and most of it is due to trappers. If we run two or three a year we feel lucky anymore. You guys in bobcat country might run that many a day, but the fact remains I have never killed a female bobcat, and I never sexed one in the tree, I know that was just a feeble atempt by feeble minds to start a fight and it did. Go back to kindergarten and learn to read would ya!!! All of ya. Sorry Greenhorn that was a very feeble attemt. bcat

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

[This message has been edited by bcat (edited 03-08-2001).]

 

[GatoMan]

Quoating Bcat "I have never killed a female bobcat in my life. I have killed many bobcats, and have let ten times that many go." WOW, for someone that has killed many bobcats.....and says he can't sex them in a tree. You must have mighty good luck if you have killed all toms.

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GatoMan

 

[sheCat]

Gato man--
Where in any of these posts was the "Quote" that said bcat could sex bobcats in the tree? Just curious. sheCat

 

[GatoMan]

She Cat, you need to re-read what I wrote, the word can't means can not, can't does not mean could

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GatoMan

 

[bcat]

Gatoman-Youre losing ground fast, just go back to kindergarten and learn to read yourself and quit turning everything around. The whole thing started with a page of smartass comments by Bigshot Outfitters, and accusations about my observations on lions and bobcats and whatever. He had nothing in mind, other than causing trouble and I guess it blew up in his face. The whole thing comes from not reading before typing!!! If any of you have ever learned to read!!! People can disagree on anything, and alot has to do with regions I am sure, but Bigshots post was direct and meant to stir crap and not just voice his opinion. Everyone has an opinion and that isnt bad, but BS is a difffernt thing. BS is fine if youre funning around, but BS lies are another thing to me anyway!!! I am not a bull****ter, and dont take kindly to bull****ters or lawbreakers trying to justify themselves. I am sure it will all pass and nobody will remeber the cat fight, but I dont forget smartass comments, from dumbasses, that think they have seen it all and havent even seen an orphaned kitten. Idaho aint that big!!!!!! I would say a bad case of head in the butt syndrome may be the case!!!!!!!! And another thing Bigshot, if you can count that high with your fingers and toes a few times, do you know how long the average lifespan is of a female lion? How many kittens on average one will have in a regular lifespan? How many of those kittens will be females and how many would be males on average? How many of those female kittens will live to old age and produce kittens that will produce more kittens? I doubt you can count that high. You havent done m,uch studying up to do a debate with me on lions. You might have me on the bobcats, but I never professed to be a BIG SHOT Bobcat hunter!!! Just said I have never killed a female YET!!!!!! Far from the subject matter of female lions. I would suggest going to kindergarten all over and learning to read, then read up on some information about lions, the Universitys of each state will have alot of info on them. Not that their information is always totally correct , because i have seen flaws in some of their studys myself, but alot of it is true and correct, and coincides with things I have observed myself. Blatent attacks will be met with blatent attacks, I am not one to back down from a good fight, on the net or in person!!!! When ya all learn how to read i will debate with ya, until then I guess we have resorted to fighting and childish games.

bcat

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

 

[GatoMan]

Bcat, why should I spend my time reading about lions when I can go hunt them????? Maybe you need to put the books down, quit professing this "knowledge" of yours, pull the power cord to the computer and go hunting??? What 1480 posts to your credit....right during the best time of the yr to hunt cats....I know your not spending much time in the woods, so are you up to 2 cats treed this winter or you still at 1? I thought you was a full time hunter, not like a "weekend warrior" like myself...surely a full time hunter like yourself with your years of "knowledge" would catch more then 1? I'm sure you said one lion a couple weeks ago...may be mistaken. So theres only a few things I can figure it could be, either all your clients are going home empty handed...or you have no clients.....or could be your to busy tryin to educate all us "kindergardners" with all your so called "knowledge"........ I came to this board, did'nt say much...but all your sugar coating bullchitt, is gettin real old...

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GatoMan

 

[rthrbhntng]

Hey BeeScat!
That was kinda fun changing your name. You seem to be good at belittling others and changing their names. It's kind of interesting how you are the only one ranting and raving. After all your posts about demanding documentation from others and calling the info that others have provided BS I was wondering why when someone new comes on and asks some intellegent questions about your non-documented ravings, that you have to call them names and make accusations instead of posting a calm reply with no name calling and and capital letters to let us know "you are the man". I reread some of Buckshot's posts and thought he asked the questions in a gentlemanly manner. Why don't you step down off that high horse and calm down. No one is jumping your sh-t for something you didn't say.
Like Bear Creek Says "The worst advice you can give a person with a sour attitude is to be himself", your true colors are really showing.
Hey Oscar can you say "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
Steve

 

[Muledeer4me]

Well Well,I see someone is up to the same old trick's.Let me see---new guy, outfitter to boot, know's something about hunting AND put some pictures up.Bad move buckshot LOL
Kind of interesting that on another thread we were talking about bully's.
Hang in there Buckshot and GatoMan and all the rest,you have more backer's then you might know.


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Debbie

 

[bcat]

Gatoman-How many lions did you tree this winter? We had a slow winter this year and yup only got one cat out of two hunters. I didnt bok as many hunters because of reasons you have no business knowing, but it has to do with someone being here to do the ranchwork. It also had something to do with the subject matter of this thread. One of our lion areas here close was the slaughtering ground for the university of wyomings lion study. For three years they allowed the killing of every lion and a quota of twenty five, up from 10 previous years with a female quota of 4. The first year the quota was reached. I know I have typed this in here before but ya must not of been ablr to read it!! For the quotas of 25 it was filled the first year 12 toms and 13 females the next year it was about the same and the last year only 16 lions were killed 14 being females. Their objective, if you can call it that was to wipe out the lions and see how long it took for them to build themselves back up. Good reason for a study HUH!!!! I am sure you will have some smartass thing to say about this, but your personal atacks as to my lion hunting or my posting on Moosies board are unfounded, and ya dont have to read what I write (you dont anyway)!!!!! I didnt attack Bigshot Outfitters, and rather welcomed him until he attacked me personally (if you would learn how to read) I have been here alot longer than you Gato man, and I have posted alot this winter, it aint none of your business, but it shows your character anyway. Last post to you and your feeeble arguement. Will let shecat take casre of my lightwork like you.

runtbug-You are like greeny and just jump in with horsemanure in the same manner as him and I will delete your BS too if ya keep it up. Personal attacks for no reason wont be tolerated. We let Bigshot get away with it, and will let you get away with your namecalling

Beescat

You are a funy SOB!!!! You dont even know what a lion looks like probably, but ya have to hear yourself talk. I will ignore your rantings too, or delete them if ya get too ignorant like Greenhorn. He has already been warned and I will suggest to Oscar he be banned. He has two strikes and I believe three is OUT!!!!! bcat

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

 

[rthrbhntng]

"Personal attacks for no reason wont be tolerated"
Unless you name is BeScat your not allowed to attack but it is ok to accuse and demean anyone.
Must be a good freind of Oscars to be able to delete at will.
Sh-t always rises to the top.
Steve

 

[sheCat]

Gatoman,
You are absolutley right can't does not mean could. What I was asking was where he said he did sex them? anyway no matter, we could always ask Moosie to put a dictionary in here for us all

my dad used to say Can't never Could do anything.

jeez you guys lighten up! Question for all of us? Is any of this gonna matter in five years? sheCat

 

[Miller27]

I can't believe that I just wasted almost ten minutes of my life reading down this page. How are you going to attract contributors to this site with sour grapes?

 

[GatoMan]

LOL, Bcat your a joke, it isn't to hard for the normal Joe Public to read between the lines and figure out your a quack, Whats this I have never attacked BigShot outfitters....first of all you could get his name right its Buckshot. But if you want to be changin peoples names I gonna change yours to HEMMOROID......cause your a pain in the Asssss. What the heck is this, "I have been posting longer, wha wha wha" You sound like a little kid thats been kicked out of the lunch line " I was here first, boo hoo" Maybe everyone should chip in and buy you a pair of depends undergarments, cause thats purty much all you do is whine and cry...maybe a rattle or little bib would be nice too. Don't give me the crap about there being nothing around to hunt...Heck I have drove over 10 hrs, 1 way a few times just to hunt coon for the weekend.....but I don't need to justify myself to a moron like yourself, I see your a dedicated hunter......who would want to pay 3 grand to hunt behind you......now that Joe Public knows the only hunting you do is playing Deer Hunter on the computer I doubt they would either. Seems that every new outfitter that comes to the board you will try to turn over any board you find to try and make them look bad or unqualified, unethical, unsportsman like...then you turn around and profess how your such a goody-to-tissue to try and make yourself look good, but HEMMOROIDS you have'nt impressed me at all, keep trying though!

 

[CATMAN]

I'm am new to this board, and I'm afraid I'm in the category with "weekend warriors". I have treed many lions, and have filled many clients, but I have NEVER seen orphaned kittens.......and I will put my worthless hounds against yours anyday, and have never seen your hounds or met you either. I think you aimed your target at Buckshot, but I'll tell you something....you've pissed this kindergarten boy off by your posts. I cannot believe that someone who calls himself a guide and outfitter, that trees one lion so far....has the nerve to call people weekend warriors. I think you and shecat ought to go hunting, and quit this subject while you can...because your getting pretty personal and your attacks aren't aimed only at Buckshot anymore.........

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CATMAN

 

[Buckshot]

bcat,

I gotta admit, you're a tough guy to debate. Don't let it go to your head though because it's because you rant and rave, ignore any points that you don't feel comfortable addressing and sling so much mud in all directions that most of it winds up on your own head.

You seem pretty hung up on the kindergarten issue so just let me be the first to congratulate you on completing that. Too bad you didn't stick around for the grades after that, you might be able to actually make a point.

Let's talk about BS for a minute, which you seem to be very opposed to. I'll offer my definition, you let me know if you disagree: BS -- the habit of telling lies or stretching the truth to the breaking point in order to either make a point or inflate one's own ego. How's that? Now I've got a couple examples.

1. bcat:"The little 15 pound cat held off five dogs for over an hour till we could get to them!!!! They coulda reached up and plucked the kitten off the rock, if it were that easy, but they are vicious little critters. This cat would hiss and spit and swat at the dogs and then sit there and shiver!!!!!! He was scared to death but he held his own for an hour!!!!"

sheCat:"In this case it wasn't from lack of trying to get to the kitten, it was from lack of footing on the straight rocks. Straight down about 15 feet straight up about twenty and no foot holds at all, there was a tiny ledge that we took the picture from and one of our dogs had found that just as we came up, 5 minutes longer and our less gritty dog would have had him a kitten"

Is this the same hunt? Are you two on the same team here? When the first version didn't suit you any longer the story suddenly changed, I call BS!

2. Someone asks you if you feel the same about killing female bobcats. You reply that you've never killed a female bobcat although you've killed many bobcats. What do you think the implication is in this context? I take it to mean you have the capability of sexing bobcats in the tree. However you later state you can't sex bobcats in the tree. I call BS again.

Whether those are outright lies or just severely contorted truths, the evidence suggests you are full of BS.

In response to your math story problem, I've reviewed it and the answer is that an infinite number of kittens may be produced by a single female. If you had originally stated that if you kill a female you're killing an infinite number of offspring I would not have questioned it, as I would have understood where you were coming from. However, you stated a finite number (80) which would imply a single female could produce all that in one generation.

I have read much of the literature concerning lion biology. Carey Murphy, who conducted the long-running lion study in Yellowstone, is a friend and I spent some time there. I shared office space in graduate school with Jim Williams while he was writing his PhD thesis on lions on the front range of the Rockies. I'm listed in the acknowledgements of Toni Ruth's PhD thesis from the lion study in Glacier National Park as I spent one winter capturing, collaring and radio-tracking lions for them as an employee of the Hornocker Wildlife Research Institute (they've been responsible for more research on large cats than any other single institution). Incidentally, I learned a lot more about lion's biology from one winter on that study than from my years of following hounds. So yes, I've read the literature and I am prepared to debate the issues if you deem me qualified.

Your dictatorial threats are incredible. If Greenhorn's comment was out of line then you should have been gone a long time ago.


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Clint Gray
Buckshot Outfitting
http://www.angelfire.com/id/buckhunting