James Swan on long distance hunting shots

[Big Fin]

As if we have not had enough controversy on the site over the last few months, here is a great article that tries to address the question of long distance hunting shots on live animals as compared to the same distance shots on targets.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/long-shots-when-does-hunting-become-target-shooting/

Some very critical minds were interviewed for this article. Worth reading. The article is probably not going to change any behaviors, but has some thoughts to consider.

 

[webejmn]

Hmmm, Some very interesting, and ethical points presented there. Makes a person think.

 

[chuckyd313]

Thats a pretty good read. With me being primarily an archery hunter i always try to get as close as possible to make a clean kill. If you have the ability to take long distance shots then more power to you.

 

[Marshian]

I agree with the authors and am not real keen on long shots (over roughly 400 yards). Too much room for machismo and not enough hunting involved.

 

[shoots-straight]

I know everyone loves their range finders, but what if you banned any that read past 900 yards?

I feel we are our own worst enemies at times. Long range shooting at game gives me that uneasy feeling.

 

[idnative1948]

"gives me that uneasy feeling."

Dead on with that statement. To me, if I am having any second thoughts at anything over 600 I better damn well not be taking the shot.

I know everyone loves their range finders, but what if you banned any that read past 900 yards?

I feel we are our own worst enemies at times. Long range shooting at game gives me that uneasy feeling.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Stirring the pot?

As if we have not had enough controversy on the site over the last few months, here is a great article that tries to address the question of long distance hunting shots on live animals as compared to the same distance shots on targets.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/opinions/long-shots-when-does-hunting-become-target-shooting/

Some very critical minds were interviewed for this article. Worth reading. The article is probably not going to change any behaviors, but has some thoughts to consider.

 

[LopeHunter]

People who think they can shoot a country mile will not need a range finder that reads that distance. They will get a reading at the half way range or so and adjust on a guess of what actual distance is.

I have glassed up pronghorn at 600 yards on gusty days and could identify 2 and sometime 3 directions of wind rolling through the sage between me and the animals. Factor in a small imperfection on the bullet weight, the primer burn rate, the powder charge, cleaning oil in the barrel, elevation change, thermals, animal stepping forward while the bullet is in flight, temperature, humidity, angle of shot...and I will be keeping my shots under 400 yards and prefer under 250 which is where most of my shots take place. This approach works for me.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Ever tried to range a pronghorn at 800 yd on flat ground? Its dam near impossible to get an accurate reading. With that said, I HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS MATTER.

 

[Caseknife]

Excellent read, I agree whole heartedly. I've read too many times and seen video clips of guys shooting 9-1200 yds across a brush choked canyon at a bedded animal in a small opening. We hear of the successful kills, hear nothing of the animals that are wounded and die a slow death. I would feel uncomfortable with a 400 yd shot without a lot of practice at the range, but then a lot of my kills have been at bow range.

 

[SFC B]

Good read and I feel it is a matter of respect for the game as well. Shot placement, skill in stalking or at least be quiet/low scented and the ability to recover the animal are some of my concerns.

 

[Papa-Zulu]

I shot a pronghorn in the late '70s in Wyoming with my .243 at 408 paces...hit it right in the heart. But I had a solid position, a windless day and knew I could make the shot. In the late 1990s I killed a cow elk at 515 long paces with my 7mm Weatherby. Again, I had perfect conditions and a solid rest in prone position. In those days I was a very good rifleman; today, I am old and doddering and would never take either of those shots. At the risk of blowing my own horn, at the end of my three-year Marine Corps enlistment I shot on the U.S.M.C. rifle team at Camp Lejeune, NC and won trophies. But shooting at a target at 600 yards versus a big game animal at the same distance is a very different proposition. I detest this recent trend toward long-range shooting at big game animals by hot-dog young guys who think they are snipers. The whole concept stinks and does nothing but cast badly on hunters.

 

[Papa-Zulu]

Gads, please excuse my typing: No "e" on "solid", and it should have been U.S.M.C., and "hot-dog young guys."

 

[cowboy]

Would somebody please take the bait and jump in here before I go get my azz hat and speak up.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Gads, please excuse my typing: No "e" on "solid", and it should have been U.S.M.C., and "hot-dog young guys."

PapaZulu---You know all you have to do to correct stuff like that is to click on the edit icon to the right in your post, make the changes, and then repost the correct version.

Try this one out for size guys. I got into it with an idiot on the longrange hunting website that claims he head shoots game out at distances over 800 yards. I called him out as unethical doing it on animals at any real distance when the head is so small and can move at any time. They can even take a step in the 1/2 second or more the bullet will take to get there at those long distances, so at least aim at the vital heart/lung area of the chest. This LR stuff is growing and the shows on TV are making it out like anybody can buy a rifle with one of the newer scopes and do it with no problem. I would wager that there aren't 10% of people hunting big game that should be shooting over 300 yards even with a rest because they just don't practice it or even have a range to do that practice. IMHO we are our own worst enemies on a lot of this stuff. If a guy wants to brag about his shooting skills, why can't he do it on paper or steel targets and leave the living, breathing animals alone?

 

[cowboy]

For all the above ethical hunters and anti "long range shooters" - let me ask the question:

"What is the longest yardage you would personally shoot at a wolf?" - assuming season was open and you had a tag.

I'll bet I don't get too many honest responses.

Big Fin: you started this so let's assume no cameras are rolling and you are out by yourself.

 

[Big Fin]

"What is the longest yardage you would personally shoot at a wolf?" - assuming season was open and you had a tag.

Big Fin: you started this so let's assume no cameras are rolling and you are out by yourself.

Same as if cameras are rolling. Same as if it is with a rifle or a bow. Same as if it is wolf, elk, deer, antelope, bear, or whatever.

I am not shooting, unless I am comfortable that the conditions, distance, shot angle, my experience, my firearm, my ammo, and my excitement level will allow for a clean kill. Pretty easy answer for me. It is not a set distance, but a situation-dependent answer. What I am comfortable with, others may not be. What others are comfortable with, I might not be.

I shoot a lot. Ammo is free for me. I purposely go out and practice at a bench in terrible conditions. I do so to learn what my bullet/rifle do in those conditions. It makes life a lot easier when conditions are good. I practice a lot at the longest distances of our range, but I do not use that as my effective range, as most often I do not have bench rest conditions, the wind is blowing, the animal is on alert and many other variables I cannot control.

I am at a point of my hunting life where I don't feel compelled to take a shot to impress anyone or take a shot that is beyond where I am comfortable. I take most pride in how close I get, not how far I shoot an animal.

I have passed many shots that I thought were questionable, but not due to distance, rather conditions and situation. I passed and tried to get closer or better conditions. Most often, it has worked. Sometimes it doesn't work, but that is part of what I enjoy in hunting.

Makes no difference to me whether cameras are there, or not. It is still an animal that I have respect for and feel the obligation to take a shot I think I can make. Cameras rolling or not rolling.

Not sure if you are implying that I hide things that happen when filming our show. If you are implying that, it would be wrong.

I know enough about shooting, shooting conditions, and the magic of editing, to understand that some, if not all, of these long range shows are only showing the good and have had situations where they decided to not show the ugly. Just a simple matter of physics and probability. Those who think otherwise have a different faith in human ability and application of physics than I do.

When your business model is built around taking longer and longer shots, sooner or later, you are going to have a mess. I am spared that luxury, so I have no problem showing when I make a mess, with last season's AK black bear hunt as a good example.

Those making their name by long distances cannot afford to show the messes, as they know the criticism will come, and deservedly so. That makes for a much different level of transparency in the shows you watch.

Some of those people showing long distance shooting (bow or rifle) are amazing shots and physics junkies. Others are blowhard hacks who have no business promoting the notion of long distance shooting. Both will have days where conditions overrule their talent, with some having a far greater frequency of negative results than others.

Hope that answers your question. It is an honest answer.

 

[BuzzH]

I keep detailed journals and after reading this thread, I looked at how many pronghorn, deer, and elk I've killed at ranges over 300 yards.

Out of 242 big-game animals, I've shot 26 that were over 300...only 3 of those 26 from 500-620 (2 deer and 1 elk).

I think the biggest value to doing a lot of shooting at longer ranges at steel and targets is that if you want to shoot well at those longer ranges, it forces you to have your rifle and yourself really squared away. If you have flaws in your shooting form, trigger control, or your gear...you'll find it when you get out past 400 at the range.

The last 3 or so years I've spent a ton of time at the range shooting from 300-800 and its helped my shooting a lot at the ranges where I shoot most of my big-game (inside 300). It also makes you aware of how conditions (wind, heat, cold, etc.) impact your shooting as well.

Its nice to know, that if you somehow botch a shot at normal range and wound an animal, that you have the skills and equipment to finish the job at longer ranges if needed. I also honestly asked myself what I would do if faced with a situation where I found an animal I wanted at longer range (400-600) and knew it was now or never. Assuming good rest, good shooting conditions...what would I do in that situation on an animal I'd worked very hard to find? Perhaps an animal I'll only get ONE chance at in my life-time.

I answered that question honestly, and since then, I've invested in equipment, load development, and spent a lot of time at the range...

I'll always be a fan of getting as close as possible, but I dont want to leave opportunties on the table either.

 

[Zach]

I'm fairly new at big game hunting, To date I've killed 4 deer and 2 antelope(4 years of BG). All my kills have been under 150 yds and I've only missed 1 deer at 170 yds, uphill. I over calculated that one.

Now I've been shooting a lot longer than I've been hunting. With that being said, I've always been able to put myself in a position so that the shot was less than 200 yds, but I can kill paper further.

 

[thecrittergitter]

There is no question this post could go into a back and forth battle for ages.....guys who think they can shoot farther than they should be, other guys who think they somehow know what the limits should be on the next guy, etc......

I grew up in Western MT. We sighted our rifles in dead on at 100 yards becasue we would very rarely even be able to see farther than that to shoot. When I got to college and realized elk actually lived in places that had open country, I learned that many guys sighted in at 200 and 300 because a 400+ yard shot was pretty common. I thought that was ridiculous. Fast forward to now when I have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds over that 100 yard mark and now feel much more comfortable shooting farther than that. With the proper weapon AND CONDITIONS, I wouldn't hesitate to take a longer shot. What that means is one day I may feel 100% confident at 500 yards because conditions are ideal but the next day, wind blowing, animal on high alert, etc.....I may not even feel comfortable at 400 yards.........

Its really as simple as feeling confident in your ability. Period.

Some guys abuse it, no question........