I thought the Wolves ate all the Elk in Montana???

JoseCuervo

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What happend to the wolves eating all the Elk?


Elk herd numbers at all-time high; record year possible
By JARED MILLER
Ravalli Republic

HAMILTON – A strong elk harvest in the Bitterroot Valley depends on four criteria.


Herd numbers must be strong. Hunter numbers must be high. Land must be accessible. And the weather must be wet and cold.


If all those variables come together, hunters will be successful, and freezers will be full. But subtract even one, and the hunt will be as flat as it was last year, and the two previous years, experts say.


The harvest this year, which begins Sunday, has the potential to be awesome, officials have said. But it will depend on the presence of all four criteria.


Here’s how they look so far:


Elk herds in the Bitterroot are running at an all-time high. As usual, hunters are expected to turn out by the thousands. And land access is good. The wild card – as has been the case in recent years – will be the weather.


“Generally speaking in the Bitterroot Valley, the worse the weather is the better the harvest will be,” said Bill Thomas of Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks.


Bitterroot elk herds are migratory, and require significant snow and cold temperatures to force them from the high elevations, Thomas said.


“If we were to get a foot of snow, and it was ten below zero, it would be a terrific elk harvest,” said John Vore, Bitterroot area biologist for Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks.


Weather patterns should shift from the recent summer-like conditions to cool temperatures by Wednesday, but so far forecasters aren’t predicting particularly bitter weather for opening day, said Eric Boldt, meteorologist at the National Weather Service office in Missoula.


It’s too early to tell about weather for the rest of the season.


At no time in history have there been more elk in the Bitterroot than now. A spring head count revealed 7,723 elk – about 1,200 more than the previous record set two years ago. And biologists used a direct head count to arrive at that figure. Many animals are missed.


“Elk are certainly at a historic high, and probably an all time high – even more than in pre-Columbian times,” Vore said.


Numbers of mule deer are also high, Vore said. And whitetail deer are at a near record.


The reason for bountiful elk numbers are many, officials said.


The population began to rise in the 1980s after the state reduced the female elk harvest. Previously, hunters were allowed to harvest elk of either sex. Today, the general season allows hunters to harvest male elk with certain restrictions on age.


A succession of mild winters and resulting poor hunting conditions have contributed to a high survival rate among bull elk, Vore said.


Also, land that was once open to hunters is now privately owned and closed. Hunting is the primary tool to manage herd numbers.


“Back in 1975 or 1980, who would have dreamt that we would be counting 7,700 elk?” Vore said.


Elk herds are so robust, that the state has issued 200 special permits for antlerless elk, called A-9 permits. And Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks has proposed an increase in the number of permits sold next year.


Vore said scientists would like to see the total elk population in the valley drop by about 2,000.


“We don’t want them out of balance with food supplies, we don’t want them causing game damage to agricultural operations, and we don’t want them wasted by dying in the winter of natural causes,” Thomas said. “We would rather have them go home and be in people’s freezers.”


Thousands of hunters are expected to show up this season to test their skills against the Bitterroot’s growing elk herd.


If last year’s numbers are any indication, about 9,000 hunters will be on the hunt. Vore said he expects to see 1,000 or more hunters through the Darby check station alone.


As time has proven, the same criteria required to bring elk to the hunters are not required to bring hunters to the elk.


Hunter turnout will be strong no matter what the weather conditions, Thomas said.


“Hunters have experienced some difficult weather conditions that were not conducive to hunting the last several years,” he said. “And yet they are such an optimistic bunch. They will be out there.”
 
Let's hear from the anti-wolf crowd about how this could be possible! I think I remember them telling us a few years ago that all the elk would be gone by now!
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Another thing thats funny too, it would seem MT hunters need 3 feet of snow to push the elk within reach of their atv's before they get any kind of a harvest.

Anybody ever heard of hiking?

Looks like all the wolf haters can chew on a big piece of crow.
 
cj, maybe you should check your comprehension skills...

From the above article:

"As time has proven, the same criteria required to bring elk to the hunters are not required to bring hunters to the elk."

In other words, ditch the ATV and HIKE. You dont need 3 feet of snow, an atv, and a 30/378 to kill elk in MT...despite what people say.

I guess simple solutions baffle the average MT hunter. No wonder elk success is 15% and that 90% of the elk are killed by the same 10% of the hunters year after year.
 
Question for the wolf huggers. Is the Bitterroot all of Montana or just one valley?

If you'ld bother to read the article you might come across some information that would explain why elk numbers are high.

"The reason for bountiful elk numbers are many, officials said.


The population began to rise in the 1980s after the state reduced the female elk harvest. Previously, hunters were allowed to harvest elk of either sex. Today, the general season allows hunters to harvest male elk with certain restrictions on age.


A succession of mild winters and resulting poor hunting conditions have contributed to a high survival rate among bull elk, Vore said."

Here's a particularlly interesting line:

"Also, land that was once open to hunters is now privately owned and closed. Hunting is the primary tool to manage herd numbers."

No mention of foot or atv access limited here Buzz boy, just closed to all hunting.

And they didn't even mention the fires of 2000. You guys would all have to agree that fire is good for elk wouldn't you?

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-31-2003 07:45: Message edited by: BHR ]</font>
 
if you believe this "article" it says there are four things for "success" Buzz take note here, one of the thing`s it states is "access" and if any of the four "criteria" are not met it will fail! I guess it should have said "access" according to Buzz!
 
But Paul, I thought you said wolves would wipe out the elk in MT.

I see, fires from 2000 are causing the huge increase in elk, even though only 2 breeding cycles have taken place...

Do you understand population dynamics?

Wolves have been working on the same elk population since 93...in 94 the doomsdayers were already predicting an end to elk hunting by 2000, or sooner, or at least greatly reduced opportunity.

Now, in 2003, the FWP cant give away all the available cow permits, so they are allowing hunters in some units to harvest an additional cow.

Does that sound like a loss in hunter opportunity due to wolves?

Right as always Paul.
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Buzz,

I'll answer your comments point by point and then throw a few back at you.

"But Paul, I thought you said wolves would wipe out the elk in MT."

Show me where I said this. Go back and check everyone of my posts. Your putting words in my mouth. I did say that wolves are causing a serious decline in the calf survival rates in a number of areas in Montana. Other areas where wolf habitat is marginal, they may actually be a benefit to the overall elk populations of that area.

"I see, fires from 2000 are causing the huge increase in elk, even though only 2 breeding cycles have taken place...

Do you understand population dynamics?"

Where did I say that the 2000 fires are causing the huge increase in elk? I only mentioned this as one more reason the population is expanding, not the only reason. In your opinion, would 2 breeding cycles after a fire have positive effect or negative effect on the elk population?

"Wolves have been working on the same elk population since 93...in 94 the doomsdayers were already predicting an end to elk hunting by 2000, or sooner, or at least greatly reduced opportunity."

The wolves were not reintroduced until 1995. Are you telling me there was a viable population in the Bitterroot in 1993? If so, why the need for reintroduction. I'm confused. Any source for the doomsdayers prediction of the end of hunting by 2000, or did you make this one up. Certainly you can't quote me with this statement.

"Now, in 2003, the FWP cant give away all the available cow permits, so they are allowing hunters in some units to harvest an additional cow."

I applied for a cow tag in 2003 and didn't get one. Maybe FWP could have given the additional tags to the unsucessful applicants first instead of issueing a second one to an already successful applicant. At any rate, how about 313. Did they issue more or less cow tags in that unit for 03?

"Does that sound like a loss in hunter opportunity due to wolves?"

In unit 313 it does.

And now some questions for you Buzz.

Any comments on the loss of hunting access in the Bitterroot as mentioned in the article? I recall in one of your past post that you dismissed this as an relevent issue in Montana.

How about the recent suit to block delisting brought on by the wolf huggers? Does this cause you any concern? Will you at least acknowledge that certain percentage of wolf huggers are anti-hunters? Any ideas on how to move delisting forward or are you even in favor of delisting at this point?

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-01-2003 11:13: Message edited by: BHR ]</font>
 
Paul,"How about the recent suit to block delisting brought on by the wolf huggers?"

Predictable. No worse than any of the roadblocks put up by the wolf haters.

"Does this cause you any concern?"

Not much. Just one more problem to overcome.

"Will you at least acknowledge that certain percentage of wolf huggers are anti-hunters?"

Sure, so's a certain percentage of the general population of the US.

"Any ideas on how to move delisting forward or are you even in favor of delisting at this point?"

So far the biggest obstacle has been legislators in the back pockets of the Cattlemen's Association. Just keep working thru the problems---just like any other process. Buzz has made it real clear he is in favor of delisting ASAP and anxious for a chance to shoot a wolf. You just don't pay attention.

One of the other huge impediments to this whole process has been people like you who didn't understand the ESA and the whole wolf issue and who thought they'd be able to stop the re-introductions with all their halfassed idiotic schemes.
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<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-01-2003 11:33: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
 
Ithaca,

In responses to my question:

"Any ideas on how to move delisting forward or are you even in favor of delisting at this point?"

You responded:

"So far the biggest obstacle has been legislators in the back pockets of the Cattlemen's Association."

Can you expand on this claim. Give some examples of how this has been the biggest obstacle to delisting. It was my belief that the wolf huggers main objection to delisting was that the wolves have not yet to be restored in places like Colorado, Utah, and Nevada. Time is the only obstacle here.

Ithaca, is this what you would like to see. Wolf populations restored to these states as well?

Here's another wild comment by Ithaca:

"One of the other huge impediments to this whole process has been people like you who didn't understand the ESA and the whole wolf issue and who thought they'd be able to stop the re-introductions with all their halfassed idiotic schemes "

What kind of halfassed idiotic scheme have I ever come up with to try and stop the re-introduction? Can you defend this Limbaughist statement, or are you going to duck and run?

Paul
 
Ithica,

I think Paul got you on that one.... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What kind of halfassed idiotic scheme have I ever come up with to try and stop the re-introduction? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have yet to see any type of scheme/plan from Paul, halfassed or full-assed.
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He seems to criticize others who want to recover/expand the Bighorn Sheep, Salmon, etc..etc... But never offers anything constructive...
 
Paul, "Can you expand on this claim. Give some examples of how this has been the biggest obstacle to delisting."

Jesus! Haven't we had about a thousand discussions here about the WY Legislature holding up the delisting process with all their moronic schemes? Here's a couple articles. Paul, you must be losing your memory!

http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/july_2003/wyoming.htm

http://meek.sublette.com/examiner/v3n15/v3n15s2.htm

"What kind of halfassed idiotic scheme have I ever come up with to try and stop the re-introduction?"

Can you quote me saying YOU ever came up with any halfassed schemes?
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Your reading comprehension is about as good as Ten Bear's!
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Actually, I doubt you could even come up with a quarterassed scheme!
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Paul, sorry to hear you didnt draw one of the thousands of cow permits issued in Montana.

If you need help understanding the draw units and areas where a cow permit is 100 percent, let me know...anything for a transplant Montana resident. I drew one every year in MT on a second choice, which means there wasnt enough first choice applicants to fill them all.

Oh, and you must have missed the left-over drawing for cow tags too...and the over the counter leftover cow tags being offered a week before the general season opener. Hell, theres probably still OTC cow permits available.

Anyway, I think Ithaca and Gunner pretty much answered the rest of your questions. If you want to bitch about the delisting, write a letter to the legislature in Wyoming, I've written several. They stalled out the process long before the greenies.

The fact is the wolves have had very little impact on the over-all elk population in MT, WY, and ID. Why are you whining about them so much?

They will be delisted and I'm all in favor of that as well as wolf hunting to control total numbers.

You seem to have an unreasonable fear of the big-bad wolf.
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Paul, Remember WY bill #229?

"WYOMING

House Bill 229

This bill would allow sport hunting of wolves outside of wilderness areas and national parks. It would also set a limit of 15 packs to be allowed in the entire state. Any other wolves could be shot on sight. Even Yellowstone's wolves aren't safe when they venture outside the park's boundaries in search of food in the winter. Virtually all the wolves in Wyoming would be at risk if this bill passes."

Paul, I suppose you think bill 229 was an effort by the WY Legislature to help the delisting process go faster!
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It's tougher than ever to take you seriously, Paul.
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I wish you and Ten Bears would learn to be better debaters. Beating you two is way to easy to be interesting.
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Buzz and IT,

Even if Wyoming came out with a perfectly acceptable wolf plan from the get go, delisting would still be on the horizon because it is time sensitive. Three years after preset minimum level of packs were documented the process can begin. Wyoming never held the delisting process up. THE GREENIES ARE NOW HOLDING DELISTING UP! Get it? They are just playing out their hand. They don't like Montana's or Idaho's plan either. Any plan with lethal control of the wolf is NOT ACCEPTABLE. If you guys are OK with the greenies blocking delisting then just admit it.

Buzz,

IT and Gunner only answered a couple of my questions. You dodged a whole bunch of other ones. What's the matter, are they too hard for you? Here they are again.

"In your opinion, would 2 breeding cycles after a fire have positive effect or negative effect on the elk population?"

"The wolves were not reintroduced until 1995. Are you telling me there was a viable population in the Bitterroot in 1993? If so, why the need for reintroduction. I'm confused. Any source for the doomsdayers prediction of the end of hunting by 2000, or did you make this one up. Certainly you can't quote me with this statement."

And
"Any comments on the loss of hunting access in the Bitterroot as mentioned in the article? I recall in one of your past post that you dismissed this as an relevent issue in Montana."

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-06-2003 08:39: Message edited by: BHR ]</font>
 
Paul, I'll answer your questions, piece of cake.

On the fire question, I doubt the fires had an effect either way. Its usually several years before any real positive comes from fires. I'd say from here on out there may be some increased recruitment.

The doomsdayers, are you serious? How many times on just this board, have we read articles by Gillette, Jim Zumbo, etc. crying that elk hunting is finished in the West? Come on now, dont be ridiculous.

The Bitterroot access is another typical hunter excuse. Please explain why elk having a few places where they wont be shot on sight is bad? Ever thought of hunting near those safety zones? Also, if you think its bad, what you need is even MORE wolves to work on those areas and push the elk out of places like that. Also, if wolves were really having an impact, they'd have no problem killing all the elk they wanted on those ranches that deny access...maybe they also deny wolf access?
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The bottom line is your all pissed off because you cant prove, in any way, shape, or form, that wolves are causing a decline in elk numbers...its just the opposite. Hey, I'm just repeating the numbers and what the MTFWP is finding for elk numbers.

But, despite all that, I'm still in agreement with you that wolves need to be controlled through hunting and delisted as they've definately met the requirements for delisting. Further, I'm not for the greenies or the WY, MT, or ID legislatures holding up the process. But, pull your head out of the sand, WY is 100 percent stalling the process with their crap plan...the USFWS wont support it. Until they do, we're dead in the water on delisting.

Any other silly questions?
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I don't know if this has any bearing on anything. I just watched a program on dangerous animals last night on one of the animal channels. They stated that wolves get an average of 10 elk per wolf per year, with an average of 6 that are heathy elk. Of that 6 healthy elk an average of 4 are bulls, stating that bulls have a tendancy to not be as leary as cows and tend to stick around and battle it out, get wore out and then obviously get ate.
 
The wolves ate all my elk too...

The area that I have hunted for years held about 6 elk this year. There are usually about 50-100 in the drainage at any given time. I spent five days covering the entire area of about 15-18 square miles and all I found was 6 sets of elk tracks in those five days... And one dead 6pt bull that could have died from who knows what.

A pack of about 10 wolves has been running rampant in the area since about mid September the were tracks there to prove it. But it looked like a frickn feed lot with all the elk tracks that were made about the time the wolves showed up...

I talked to a good friend of mine that hunts the next major drainage over, he said that he saw more cow elk than he had ever seen and more elk the first week than ever as well. All while hearing wolves howl every night and morning and seeing them quite often... One thing that was kind of odd was he said he saw over 200 cows and not a single bull... I guess they are better at hidding or maybe the wolves at them all HAHAHAH...

I am not quite sure what to make to the whole wolf issue but for now it doesn't apear to be hurting the elk population all the at much.

One thing that bothers me about the statements about all the cow permits that are given out is... Not nearly as many people put in for them anymore.... Everyone wants to kill a bull no matter how big or small for that matter... The area that we hunt has given out the same number of cow tags for as long as I can remember and the applicants has gon down 75% in the last 7 years... HMMM

Ivan
 
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