Hey Draath... new game cam laws....

[Horn Seeker]

"It is illegal for a person to possess or use in the fi eld any electronic or camera device who’s purpose is to scout the location of game animals or relay the information on a game animal’s location or movement during any Commission adopted hunting season"

So...what do you think of that?? I think its vague as ever...

"who’s purpose is to scout the location of game animals or relay the information on a game animal’s location or movement"

HUH? Who wrote these? Isn't "Who" a pronoun for a person or at least a living being" Then, who is to determine what the purpose is? If the warden asks, What is the purpose of having this cam out, and you say, "I'm just taking pictures of critters that walk by"... does that mean you are "scouting the location"? Is a coyote a game animal? no.. so I can have them out ANYTIME, ANYWHERE..if I'm only looking for coyotes right?

"during any Commission adopted hunting season"

So...there are big game commissioned seasons pretty much statewide from 1st Sat in September on through about March.. then again in April on through dang near mid June... About the only time to use them would be from Mid June-Mid August.... to be safe??

This definition is way worse than last years, which was vague as hell....

 

[Randy11]

It's vague enough that even using hand operated video cameras could be considered against the rules.
Way to clear up the window by sneezing on it FWP.

 

[drahthaar]

Yeah, I knew this was coming months ago. I wrote a 3 page letter to the commissioners trying to get a little input, trying to get them to spell out things clearly. I talked to Jim Kropp, the head LEO for fwp, because I think he has some input with them. Turned out the way it was written is exactly how he told me was going to be. He said game cams have always been illegal in every way shape or form, it just needed to be clarified. So there you have it. We can't use them, the way it writes, basically but the month of July and first 15 days of August, or whenever Antelope season starts(lots of lopes here around Kalispell).

Kropp told me, if you don't have a license for a particular season, say lion season, then use the cams. Again, that isn't what the reg is saying. That isn't in there. I wouldn't test it. I hear guys saying this that and the other, how they can "beat it", coming up with all these little BS tidbits to get around it, myself included, bottom line, its all semantics, they clearly made cams illegal in MT.

Personally, I am pretty upset about it. I doubt anybody runs as many cams as I do. Now its done. I don't want to have to try and come up with some BS to try to get out of a ticket. I don't roll that way. I want cams, basic trail cams, to be legal in MT, period. I told them, If they really felt they need to do something with this, then ban the cams that can send emailed pics, that basically give real time information. You could really use those to an unfair advantage in the field. It would throw a bone to the "anti-cam" folks, and yet let the pro cam guys keep using the basic cams. I mean, christ almighty, how many cams have been sold to Montanans? But I think one of them wrote this reg, they passed it around in an email, yep, sounds good, then moved on to the next topic. This is small potatoes to them.

Let me say, I don't begrudge anyone that thinks cams should be banned. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I don't think that anyone that has really used one would find there is some unfair advantage in killing a particular animal. I have yet to see some "pattern" to any one single buck, bull, or bear, lion, wolf, anything that I could have used to kill them. The only animal that I previously had on camera that I saw during hunting season was a bull that hung around a wallow in the south fork for a couple weeks in July, then I saw him in the Middle Fork in Sept. Even these big timber whities, I can think of one I had on camera 2x in the same week, in velvet, then didn't see him again until December and this a camera I had on the same tree for 3 consecutive years, changing only the batteries and swapping memory sticks. You just can't pattern an animal like the hunting show hype says you can, trying to get you to buy this cam or that cam. I just don't see it. But I have never touted myself as the great white hunter either, maybe I suck.

I know people have the "before and after" pics. That is great. But I think most you will find there is some bait involved, or an alfalpha field, or something like that. And to that, I will say, you don't see a camera to get a line on a buck coming and going from a woodlot or a river bottom to his favorite field all summer long.

I just don't see why MT has to get so damn crazy about cams. They are legal in every other state, P&Y club, B&C clubs do not deny their use, its just kind of hyped up BS, get a cam and kill trophy animals. In talking to Kropp, there seems to be some kind of hang-up about trophy animals getting killed. Didn't quite get it. I asked if there were complaints, citations, problems of some sort that wardens were seeing that warranted all this, he said no. Then he said, there was a hunting show being filmed on the east side, where they used a trail cam to get a pic of a mulie, then moved their setup and killed the buck. They were cited for it. That is all.

I just had fun with it. Truthfully, I put more effort into getting big predators on cam than deer and elk. I get bored with deer and elk. And it was all just to see "what's out there", I wasn't taking meticulous records of time, date, moon phase, blah blah blah. It was just fun, fun for my kids, even my wife gets into it. It was a family thing.

 

[drahthaar]

Let me continue my little rant for a second.

There are things that really chap my ass about this. I see now the youth age is now 11. 11-15 can hunt in MT and whack does and cows, just about statewide. This effort to get kids involved in hunting by starting them at 11 and then letting them whack cows and does is plain stupid to me, for two reasons. And I have spelled out my feelings to several folks at FWP with this too. First, these youth tags are nothing more than meat tags for dad. Everybody with an 11-15 y.o. is now shoving his kid through hunters safety so he can get that many more tags. Most don't even hide this fact, I hear it all the time!!!! So what happens, dad drives Jr all over hell and back looking to shoot a doe or cow because by god, he ain't packin a cow to far from a road. Jr, might get to shoot if the dang thing is on his side of the truck. So we are showing kids the ropes by putting emphasis on killing something, to hell with woodsmanship or getting out and looking for sign, scrapes, rubs, wallows, etc. Its pop and chips, a good sugar high, and a long nap, driving all over.

I say, get some cams in these kids' hands. My kid is only 5 and he is starting to get it. Gets them out looking for a good spot to get some good pics. You don't walk out willy nilly and throw it up on a tree. You have to hunt for a good spot, its kind of like trapping without bait. I probably put on more miles hiking, looking for a good spot for a cam, than I ever did before I built a cam. Then, if they go and get a good pic of a buck or a bull, now they are MOTIVATED, something is out there, its 10x better than looking at dried up old elk crap. Or say they get a bear or lion or wolf. Sheesh, I have 100s of pics of wolves, and I still get excited to get one of dang things on camera.
And this doesn't even decribe my disgust at this "slaughter" of does and cows by daddy,er, I mean youth hunters. I thought our herds were in peril??? Well, are they or not? Which is it, I am confused. Its OK to keep blowing down cows and does as long as it's in the name of getting kids to like hunting? Just blame everything on wolves? This youth hunt(daddy's other B tag) couldn't possibly have an effect, huh. (Don't start with me, I want to whack wolves as much as the next guy, I am just irritated right now) But I digress.

Trail cams are unethical? Well, what about laser rangefinders? That is an electronic device used real time in aiding in the taking of a game animal. This is OK? Now we have archers with 70,80,90, 100 yd pins. Great, I am sure they are spot on. What about your "Best of the West" Gunwerks hyped up BS. Just buy this $6500 gun and go knock em down at 600-1000 yds. But you better have your laser rangefinder. I am sure everyone shooting out that far during season puts in time at the range to get proficient. Shoot clear across entire basins, but by god, if that bull doesn't drop, you better take the next 2 hours and hike your long-range ethical ass down through the alder and MEFE and up through the same to go look for blood. Right! I am sure that happens.

And the granddaddy of all broken regs. Just to test our ethical behavior, MT is one of just a few states that lets hunters drive around with loaded weapons at the ready in the cab of the truck. But, don't shoot from the truck, or the road, or even the barrow pit! LOL. They're joking right? Has to be a joke, seriously, you want me to pack Jr's. cow how far??? I am sure none of MT's trophy quality animals are shot from a vehicle. Its those dang trail cam guys killing all the trophies. Right, I am sure half the hunters in this county wouldn't know what to do if they had to keep there gun locked in a case separate from their bullets, and have to actually go lay down boot leather to fill their tag.

Its OK to continue with ridiculous crap like this, but holy crap, we don't want someone to know some buck was standing on some trail two weeks ago.

The last thing I told them was about private land. They can't ignore it. Gook luck telling some guy that he can't watch for tresspassers with cams. The guy that lets me have full run of his land in Eureka could care less about my pics, he likes the fact that we have nailed about 4 or 5 people tresspassing. He has always had tons of problems with tresspassers, after the first got busted, word got around in a small town, and now the problem is just about non existent. I really don't want to tell him about the new regs. He is gonna blow a gasket.

 

[Horn Seeker]

You've got a lot of stuff right... thats for sure... one thing...it is not fun looking over your shoulder cause you are doing something wrong... that shouldn't be WRONG... I guess we can get a bunch of pics in Mid June-Mid August huh??

So aren't you a city firefighter? Why do you know shorthand for Menziesia ferruginea? Dont you love that shit...

 

[drahthaar]

You've got a lot of stuff right... thats for sure... one thing...it is not fun looking over your shoulder cause you are doing something wrong... that shouldn't be WRONG... I guess we can get a bunch of pics in Mid June-Mid August huh??

So aren't you a city firefighter? Why do you know shorthand for Menziesia ferruginea? Dont you love that shit...

I am a chiropractor with a Fish and Wildlife degree from MSU. I worked for the FS for years and couldn't get a permanent job during the affirmative action/hiring freeze push. Kept having to apply for my job every 6 months or 13 months, and kept losing it to vetrans preference. I worked trails, timber, fire, silvaculture, and finally hydrology, before throwing my hands in air and ditched the whole thing.

 

[Dinkshooter]

Testify Drahthaar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That does suck, I always liked your pics.

Not sure the law would stop me if I really enjoyed doing it.

 

[Horn Seeker]

That explains it... shoot...thats where I'm at, but I have a good woman making a bunch of dollars so I can keep playing the 6 month bullshit... Let me guess...you graduated late 80's to early 90's...man..that was a dismal time to come out of school... affirmative action was in its heyday...

Anyhow..I am going to miss your pics... I think you should just be an outlaw and keep them coming!!!

:0)

 

[Randy11]

Anyhow..I am going to miss your pics... I think you should just be an outlaw and keep them coming!!!

:0)

That or just stick your five year old in the tree with a camera. Come by once a week with caprisun and crackers (a lot cheaper than batteries and memory sticks).

 

[drahthaar]

That or just stick your five year old in the tree with a camera. Come by once a week with caprisun and crackers (a lot cheaper than batteries and memory sticks).

LOL. That is funny.

Yeah, I am sorry, I don't mean to make this such a big deal, but its a big deal to me. I know the commission has some real big issues with all this OSL, BM, landowners, people's livelihood, land, money on the line, in the east, and wolves and elk numbers, seasons in the west, but I just think they and FWP really dropped the ball on this. They are making an issue out of a non issue.

"Honey, yeah, the boy said he wanted to stay up there." That would go over like a turd in a punchbowl.

 

[drahthaar]

Who needs caprisun, he has always figured his own stuff out.

 

[drahthaar]

That explains it... shoot...thats where I'm at, but I have a good woman making a bunch of dollars so I can keep playing the 6 month bullshit... Let me guess...you graduated late 80's to early 90's...man..that was a dismal time to come out of school... affirmative action was in its heyday...

Anyhow..I am going to miss your pics... I think you should just be an outlaw and keep them coming!!!

:0)

maybe I will have a few good ones, I still have to make a trip north to go pull them off that guys land. Put em back up in July, maybe get some velvet bucks and bulls, and the ksanka peak pack will have the pups out and about, maybe get some pics of them.

 

[Randy11]

Ha, looks like he'd be all for it.

I completely agree though, it really doesn't make sense that they'd be worried about something like this, especially with all of the real problems this state has right now. I really doubt they even looked into it or really put any thought into it.

It's so damn vague though, I couldn't see a warden caring one way or the other if you've got them out as long as it wasn't during a big game season that you were hunting. I'd still use them in the summer and winter and not worry about it.
I'm still going to put them up after spring bear season, and if I can figure out one that'll work, I'll have them out next winter right after rifle season's over.

As long as you aren't using the camera for taking pictures of an animal in season, which I'm pretty sure you weren't anyways, I still see them as being legal.

 

[shoots-straight]

drahthaar, your rant is spot on. I couldn't have ranted any better. This type of law is as dumb as the one passed 15 years ago concerning fishing. DFW&P's made it illegal for white fisherman to use hellgrammites for bait. The thinking was that white fisherman were keeping trout they caught.(There was already a law against that). I usually caught more on flies with maggots, but some knucklehead thought that using hellgrammites was a big deal. Hell you could still catch and release trout on purpose in the winter (still can) but the evil white fisherman was to blame for low trout numbers. Good thing this was over turned by people with common sence.

I too enjoy the trail camera thing. It gives me another reason to go hiking in the off season. Problem is that there's some sort of season somewhere. Dumb rule for sure.

 

[drahthaar]

I don't give a crap if its season or not. They should be legal. If there is any time you aren't going to pattern a buck or a bull is when they are rutting!! Any wind carrying the sweet smell of estrus into their nose is going to blow them, figuratively speaking of course.

In fact, if you really want to wreck a hunting spot during the rut, keep running in there checking a cam on a rub or scrape, you will be stinking up the place waaayyyy to much for that mature buck. But it should be our choice.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Spot on Drath. My first thought after reading that is that is even more ambiguous than before. One thing that really aggravates me about the cam rule and some other equipement rules is that most of the restrictions are not founded on any solid reasoning other than someone with input or the ability to make a rule doesn't like that piece of equipement. Why should someone elses equipement preferences dictate what I'm allowed to use?
I agree that the rule needs to be changed to allow the use of cameras. Same deal with lighted nocks on arrows. How is a lighted arrow nock going to let you see to shoot any later?

 

[drahthaar]

The wee one said she would volunteer to be a prototype, new improved legal game cam.
Its not motion activated.

 

[cornfed]

So I quess any place of buisness with a security camera that takes a picture of a game animal during season would be up for a citation.Not much different than your pics with the heavy equipement in the back ground.Doesn't a person have the right to protect and patrol his property by any reasonable means?Good luck getting the law straightened out.Always looked forward to your pictures.

 

[Sytes]

Great thread on cams. From a variety of comments to include Draath's take in a more specific application of such.

I have not used cams of the sort for capturing pics of game. And I believe many that do not use such base generalized opinions from what is mentally cultured. Main point as mentioned above those rabid TV hunting shows that have the planted bean fields and scented trails with baited stop points etc are unfortunately the lesser educated activities associated with cams...

Another reason OYO holds great ability to more clearly establish additional considerations of topics. As Gerald stated,

...most of the restrictions are not founded on any solid reasoning other than someone with input or the ability to make a rule doesn't like that piece of equipement.

Seeing the actual used side of this product outside of the typical "cams are great to get big buck kills!" TV shows... certainly opens my thoughts BEYOND the reasoning behind such "illegally" used tools.

Anyhow - Seems a field day of cloudy judgement - if one was ever cited on the use... I think it would be handled in a case by case siuation. An officer would certainly need to establish the illicit use of the cam to provide the necessary confidence for a prosecutor / judge (or JP) to take on such a "not guilty" plea.

 

[elk_hunter]

Those are some awesome kid pics!!! As for the thread topic...wow, this is quite a debacle...