Heart Rate Monitor - A step backward?

[npaden]

Okay, I'm starting to get into this running stuff a little too much I guess. Reading some different information, and checking my heart rate on some treadmills I've been using working out in hotels when I'm on the road made me decide to go out and get a heart rate monitor to help me make my running more effective. I was really surprised to find out the results.

According to all the charts at my age I should have a 177 max heart rate, but I've managed to get a 187 recorded after doing some sprints immediately following a 6 mile jog so I'm going with the 187 as my max heart rate. To keep it in the aerobic zone I need to be between 131 (70%) and 150 (80%). Anything over that is the anaerobic zone and if you want to build endurance you are supposed to only go there if you are doing interval training and stuff like that. Otherwise most of the stuff I've read said to focus almost all of your running in the aerobic zone.

I had built up to where I felt like a 10:00 pace was a cake walk. My last big run before the heart rate monitor I ran in and out of the canyon 8.38 miles at a 9:56 pace and felt great. I even ran a 6 mile run on flat ground in an 8:56 pace and felt good. Now that I have a heart rate monitor it is telling me that I can't run anything over about 11:10 pace on flat ground without getting my heart rate in the anerobic zone. I ran my first long run yesterday with the heart rate monitor and jogged/shuffled along at a snails pace to keep my heart rate under 150. Going up the hills I had to switch to a brisk walk because I couldn't run at all and keep my heart rate under 150. Ended up going 10.2 miles with an average heart rate of 147bpm, but my pace was a whopping 11:32 overall!

I was pretty surprised at how quickly my heart rate responded to different paces and especially elevation gains. Even just a slight rise could bring my heart rate up and running down the hills I should have run even faster than I did because my heart rate dropped really fast even though I picked up the pace to 10:30ish going down the hills.

What I'm really hoping is that this won't take very long before I can at least get back to a 10:00 pace with my heart rate under 150. Some stuff I'm reading says that you can shave time off pretty quickly and other stuff says it takes years. I'm a sucker for gizmos and think it is really neat, but was surprised to find that even at my snails pace back when I was running 10:00 miles I was working out too hard according to the heart rate zones.

Anyone else do any heart rate monitoring while they workout?

I'm sure I could find a running forum, but was hoping maybe someone here might have some insight as to how quickly I could expect to improve my heart rate numbers.

Thanks, Nathan

 

[Devil Diver Down]

Nathan-
I use one when I use the eliptical machine at the gym (yeah, I know--I'm a weenie, but my knees won't take running) and have the same basic question. I'm consistently over the mark where I should top out at and way over the 80% aerobic mark.

My understanding is that my resting heart rate (and also my rate when I exercise) will be gradually lowered the more I exercise regularly. The linked article suggests some ways--even working above that magic 80% mark--to reduce resting heart rate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33451255/ns/health-heart_health/t/lower-your-heart-rate-prevent-heart-attack/#.TwM5jhzvyDs

Best of luck!

 

[npaden]

I've got my resting heart rate down to right around 60bpm so I think I'm doing decent there. I know some endurance athletes have a resting heart rate in the 40's but that takes more work and time than I want to give it.

I do plan on throwing in some interval and tempo training maybe once a week on top of my aerobic zone stuff, but plan on sticking with 70 to 80 percent of my workouts sticking in the aerobic zone. I work with a guy who has done a bunch of ironman triathalons and he is a big believer in heart rate stuff. I don't plan on doing an ironman anytime soon, but the theory behind it sounds solid.

Lots of conflicting stuff out there though. I guess when it comes down to it there are probably about 100 different ways to skin a cat and as long as you are getting some exercise in that is better than most folks. I just feel that if I'm going to spend the time working out I might as well try to make it do the most good possible.

 

[Oak]

I'm no expert. Here is a good article on heartrate training, though.

http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

 

[npaden]

Yeah, that's the exact article that I read that convinced me that I needed to at least try it out.

Right now an 8:00 mile is complete redline for me, I would be VERY pleased if I was able to get to where I was able to run an 8:00 mile with a 150bpm heart rate within a year, but something tells me Mark put in a little more time and effort than I'm going to be willing to though. I have been trying to get in workouts at least 3 times a week but I'm going to try to increase to at least 4 times a week for this year. Hopefully I can get it down to a 10:00 pace while keeping my heartrate under 150bpm by this summer sometime. I'm sure if I had been wearing a heart rate monitor this fall on my New Mexico elk hunt I would have been close to maximum a few times trudging through the snow uphill at 10,500'.

When it all comes down to it my ultimate goal is to be in shape for a mountain goat hunt if I ever finally draw it!

 

[schmalts]

That is interesting read. I was told different slightly though. Your max HR is not really what they say it should be given your age. You need to do a max rate test to get your actual max because everyone is different. My HR max and average is higher than the normal for my age and I can keep it up at that higher rate than most. A couple years ago I did a 92 mile bike race and my AVERAGE HR was 172 for the whole race and I did not bonk out. My wife said I am going to kill myself doing that but a trainer told me it is different for many athletes.
Get with a trainer and ask him to help you with a max rate test.

Another thing I was told is if you are over-training you may get a day where you cannot get your HR up to the 80% in your normal workout. If that happens, STOP, go home and rest. over-training is hurting your training. I have had that happen when I was really going at it hard a few years ago.

 

[npaden]

That is interesting read. I was told different slightly though. Your max HR is not really what they say it should be given your age. You need to do a max rate test to get your actual max because everyone is different. My HR max and average is higher than the normal for my age and I can keep it up at that higher rate than most. A couple years ago I did a 92 mile bike race and my AVERAGE HR was 172 for the whole race and I did not bonk out.

Get with a trainer and ask him to help you with a max rate test.

I did my own max rate test and did end up higher than what the chart shows for my age. I tried doing some intervals when I first got my monitor and got a max of 177 which was right at what the chart showed, but then I did some intervals immediately after I finished a 6 mile jog and notched a 187 max.

Based on my heart rate on hotel treadmills I've been running around 165bpm when I'm running a 9:00 pace and I've kept that up for 6 miles so you can keep your heart rate in the anerobic zone for an extended time frame but then there is a whole different discussion on lactic thresholds and fun stuff like that.

Pretty interesting stuff for sure.

 

[Z Barebow]

I don't train exclusively by monitoring my HR, but I wear a HRM while running. It is a tool to assist. I find it gives me an idea of my fitness and effort. When I am peaked in marathon training, my resting HR will be in the upper 40's. My general runs at the beginning of training will average around 8 BPM faster than at peak of my fitness. I will also find my HR will average higher on days of higher "perceived" effort. (IE Runs of same distance/pace day to day) I is funny when I have heavy legs, my avg HR will reflect the increased effort.

I think everyone is different. Some depends on fitness. My daughter cannot keep her HR in the aerobic range. Her HR will leap from 100 to 170 as we do a "normal" run. (She is on a state champion cross country team).

I am sure you know this, but your peak HR will slowly decrease with age. I am 46 and I can maintain pretty close to my peak HR for extended periods of time. (But I train primarily for endurance)

I can post some of my screen shots from my Garmin if you would like some reference. But keep in mind "results may vary".

 

[npaden]

Interesting. I'm also training for endurance, but based on the stuff I've been reading I'm doing this step back and slow down approach to try to train my heart to stay in the aerobic zone. Will be interesting to see how it goes. My goal is to just to run a 1/2 marathon this year so that part should be pretty easy.

It you want to share some of your charts that would be fine with me. Do you know your Max heart rate? The stuff I've read said it goes down right around 1 beat each year as you age. I'm 43 so by the time I'm 50 I'll be down to 180 or so.

 

[Z Barebow]

I suspect my max heart rate is around 175-178. Highest I can legitimately say I have ever held is probably 172. (But I don't ever train to reach this level)

One of the things I have found is not to pay attention to my heart rate the first few miles of a run/race. It takes my body several miles to settle in. Early on, my HR might be sky high and I don't feel like the effort correlates. Another possbile factor may be the sensor isn't wet yet and may not pickup quite as accurately. But I have wet the sensor before I run and didn't notice much difference.

First screen shot is from a 1/2 I did this fall. Course is pretty flat. Notice the graph and how the HR fluctuates for the 4-5 miles then pretty much settles in.

2nd screen shot is from a marathon goal paced training run I did this spring. Again, note the erratic HR until mile 3 or so. (Later in the run, you can see when I stopped at traffic lights and paused my Garmin. (HR drop and pace spike)

Don't know if this is what you are looking for. Just giving you a couple of examples. I don't worry too much about the details. Just an additional tool to see where I am at and how I feel.

 

[Z Barebow]

An additional note. Before I got the Garmin, I generally ran too fast on my training runs. Even now, the bulk (~85%) of my miles are run 45-90 secs slower than marathon goal pace. Since you are targeting a 1/2, your target paces for training will be slightly different. Here is a link to a pace calculator which has been pretty close for me. For me, it as fairly close on the longer distances. Shorter distances, not so much. (But I don't train for speed anyway, and it shows)

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/site/calculator

What is nice about it is it gives you training pace target windows and you don't need to be worry about your HR.

Good luck.

 

[npaden]

You think those max heart rates are false readings? 192 bpm max shows a couple times on that first run. Pretty amazing how it bounces around so much at the start.

Those are pretty amazing paces to me. If your max really is 192 then the top of your aerobic zone would be right around 154 so that 2nd training run you were right at the top of your aerobic zone for your average heart rate.

 

[npaden]

That mcmillan running site was pretty interesting and actually dead on for me on my heart rate stuff now that I know and have a monitor.

I put in my last 10K race and it spit out my optimal training paces right where my heart rate monitor just showed it should be. Said for endurance workouts my long runs should be 10:32 to 11:32. My 11:32 pace on my last 10 miler with an average heart rate of 147 falls right at the top of that and the biggest reason for the slower pace is the big hills I added in there, if I hadn't thrown in the hills it would have been closer to 11:15 probably. Steady-State runs say my pace should be 9:31 to 9:48 which is right in line with where I was running and I was spending a lot of time at what they are saying should be a Tempo run.

That site gets a bookmark for sure.

My unstated goal for 2012 is to run a 10K at a 7:30 pace. Not sure if I can accomplish it or not since my last 10K was at a 9:00 pace and dropping 1:30 off a 10K would be a huge improvement in one year. Heck, it would be pretty tough for me to run a mile in 7:30 right now! I've only been running for 8 months now so I'm just happy with improving for now. I was only getting in 3 workouts a week and am going to try to increase that to 4 minimum and maybe 5 so that should help a bunch too. I'm 6'3" and weigh 227lbs right now down from 240lbs when I started running 8 months ago so not exactly the typical runner, but I'm really liking the feeling of getting in shape and almost starting to actually enjoy running. Lots of time to commit to actually get good at it though.

Thanks for the info. Nathan

 

[WapitiBob]

Thanks for the article. Your posts got me started running before last season but I slacked off after that. Which monitor and software are you using?

 

[JohnDeereGreen]

Ditto what WapitiBob said. Is it an iphone app?

 

[2rocky]

from the looks of it it is Runkeeper. I know it is an Android app. Should be on Iphone too

I don't know which monitor he is using though.

 

[ARCAT]

I have been running Ultra's and ironmans and long bike races for many many years. I now train with a garmin as well. Don't get too concerned about the big jumps in HR especially in the early stages of a run. I am 47 and my max HR is 180 and rsting is 48. I have had the Garmin for 2 years. The first year I got it I was noticing wild swings. It would hit 200 some times and I really got concerned. My Dr thought i was going into A-Fib. Thats when the lower and upper chambers of your heart beat at different rates and thats a bad deal. I got a Monitor from a cardiologist and ran and biked super hard. Never got my HR above 165. Did some research and garmins can have some wild swings especially on the upper end, in addition to the terrible battery life when using the HR monitor.

I mainly use mine to track my overall fitness level and when doing intervals. Yesterday I ran 5 miles hard which for me is sub 8 min pace right after the holidays. Average HR was 161. Last summer i could run the same course, faster, with a 148 average. I do an interval workout on my bike trainer in the winter where I keep my HR above 160 for 3 intervals of 15 minutes. That will make you tough.

 

[Z Barebow]

"I mainly use mine to track my overall fitness level and when doing intervals. Yesterday I ran 5 miles hard which for me is sub 8 min pace right after the holidays. Average HR was 161. Last summer i could run the same course, faster, with a 148 average."

Pretty much what I use it for.

You can even tell when you are sick. Avg HR will be noticably higher under load vs when you are well.

RE: Runkeeper. Yes it looks like that is what Nathan is using. I used it from my PC but it seems clunky, so I quit. It must be optimized for mobile use. (Don't have a smart phone) My Garmin 305 (With HRM) keeps track of all of my outdoor runs and I dump the results into my PC. Mainly use it to track my mileage so I can update my running log from real data and not my memory.

 

[npaden]

I'm using runkeeper to keep track of everything. I use the free version for my iphone and it does pretty much everything I need. The "elite" version is only $20 per year, but I really don't feel the need to broadcast my runs live or anything so doubt I'll upgrade unless they make me sometime down the road.

The free version tracks my total mileage, I add notes to each run from my phone at the end of the run on how I felt, etc. and it keeps it all sorted out for me. It even lets me set up routes where I can easily compare the runs over the same route from one time to the next. That part is really interesting to see my progression over time. I have a "4 miles house" route that I first ran on May 27, 2011 at a 10:33 pace and I last ran November 10, 2011 at an 8:39 pace. Of course that was before I started messing with the heart rate monitor!

My first recorded run on my "3 miles house" route was back on February 13, 2011 and that was at a blistering 12:27 pace and I commented about really hurting and needed to stop and walk. My splits were 10:31, 12:28 and 14:23 for the last mile. My last run on that route was back on October 20th and my splits were 9:00, 8:56 and 8:49 for the last mile, so I've come quite a way from where I started looking back. I haven't been running those routes much because they are "short runs" to me know and a year ago I couldn't even make it 2 miles without walking.

Here's a link - http://runkeeper.com

I'm using an iPhone, but the apple products don't play very nice with others so I have to use a little dongle thing on my phone to get it to talk to a heart rate monitor. I'm using the wahoo brand.

Here's a link - http://www.wahoofitness.com/Products/Wahoo-Fitness-Wahoo-RunGym-Pack-for-iPhone.asp

I bought mine on Amazon with free shipping, but it is out of stock there right now. I looked several places, but didn't find it any cheaper anywhere else. It's $120 + $10 shipping from Wahoo.

If you have an android phone they play much nicer with other products and any bluetooth heart rate strap will work with them, you can find them under $50 lots of different places.

I use an "armpocket" to hold my phone while I run. Here's a link - http://www.armpocket.com/

I had to upgrade to an "Xtreme 30" version to hold the phone with the little dongle thing on the end of it for the heart rate monitor. There's room for a car key, powergel, etc. in there too if you want to carry it. I've gotten used to running with one on my arm from the start.

The only thing I haven't really figured out is ear phones. I don't like the wire coming out of the armpocket and haven't really found any bluetooth versions that have gotten great reviews. Right now I just use the Pandora free ap and play it over the speaker while I run. I run out in the boonies and never see anyone else so that works for me right now. I probably need to figure out something else for the future though.

I'm not 100% sold on the wahoo monitor yet. I had one glitch where the runkeeper program would not recognize it for some reason. Tried everything, wetting it, etc. and never could get it to work. It would work with their wahoo fitness program but not runkeeper. Next time I pulled it out it worked perfectly with runkeeper and haven't had any issues since, but I've only had it a couple weeks.

Battery life is decent, for using the GPS, playing music over the speaker, etc. all at the same time. I probably need to start turning off the screen because on my 10 miler I just did I started out with a 100% battery and ended up at 36% or something like that at the end of 2 hours. Unless I change something up or get an extended battery it wouldn't hold out for an entire marathon.

That's what I'm using, seems pretty cheap considering some of the heart rate watches can run $350 or so.

 

[Z Barebow]

"My unstated goal for 2012 is to run a 10K at a 7:30 pace. Not sure if I can accomplish it or not since my last 10K was at a 9:00 pace and dropping 1:30 off a 10K would be a huge improvement in one year. Heck, it would be pretty tough for me to run a mile in 7:30 right now! I've only been running for 8 months now so I'm just happy with improving for now. I was only getting in 3 workouts a week and am going to try to increase that to 4 minimum and maybe 5 so that should help a bunch too."

I guess you failed on NOT stating your goal! LOL!

"I'm really liking the feeling of getting in shape and almost starting to actually enjoy running." I hear on that one. Every year since I started running, I say I am in the best shape of my life.