Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[Stifler]

Just curious myself now. in the case one is so neglected is there any reclamation plan for damages... like say a mining operation would be responsible for having? Not to change off grazing but permits for mining you have to have a reclamation plan I think

 

[Steiny77]

I think we need to really stop pretending that Farming and Ranching is good for wildlife. It isn’t

In many areas of the country such as the midwest, the majority of ground is privately owned and the majority of wildlife reside on this private land.
While many farm and ranch practices destroy habitat and are not good for wildlife, a great deal of wildlife gets a great deal of their feed from the crops grown by farm operations. Some species such as whitetail do far better and have much higher per square mile numbers in broken up farm areas -vs- fully wooded areas.

Without decent relationships with farmers and ranchers, many of us would have no place to hunt. We are also blessed in the US with relatively cheap food a lot of which is due to farming and ranching efficiencies. Don't be so quick to condemn these guys.

 

[Buffs35]

How do ranchers feel about crossbows?

 

[Trial153]

In many areas of the country such as the midwest, the majority of ground is privately owned and the majority of wildlife reside on this private land.
While many farm and ranch practices destroy habitat and are not good for wildlife, a great deal of wildlife gets a great deal of their feed from the crops grown by farm operations. Some species such as whitetail do far better and have much higher per square mile numbers in broken up farm areas -vs- fully wooded areas.

Without decent relationships with farmers and ranchers, many of us would have no place to hunt. We are also blessed in the US with relatively cheap food a lot of which is due to farming and ranching efficiencies. Don't be so quick to condemn these guys.

We have the one of the unhealthiest food supply’s of developed county’s.
Much of it is do to industrial type farming in this county.
So much for cheap food
Your comparison of whitetail deer isn’t a good one. Compare historical pre wholesale agricultural populations of Whitetail deer say in the Midwest during the 16th and 1700s compared to today and I think you’d have a little bit of an eye-opener.

 

[Steiny77]

Your comparison of whitetail deer isn’t a good one. Compare historical pre wholesale agricultural populations of Whitetail deer say in the Midwest during the 16th and 1700s compared to today and I think you’d have a little bit of an eye-opener.

Except we live in the present and not the 1700's.
Used to have a huntable population of dinosaurs too.

 

[kwyeewyk]

The government isnt a business - but im sure i know that i can name subsidy on public land that you vehemently disagree with that benefits large and small businesses. There are a variety of examples - but influencers is the easiest one to unite HT. Taking public resources and channeling profits into private hands is an unfortunate american past time.

The idea isnt selfishly "just about hunting" but about wildlife population decline in general. To be clear - im not advocating for this - but if grazing went to 0 suddenly - not much would happen except a marginal price increase in beef price. Dramatic things would happen to a lot of small businesses, communities, and families and I would never be for that.

Fair and valid point. I know of good examples and bad. I would venture to say that in most years - a majority do good. The vitrol comes - as they continue to push for lower objectives for wildlife populations.

Got it:

Complaining- check

Fantasy about what you want-check

Action?

This has all been discussed for decades, your ideas are not new. Become an interested public for the allotments you are concerned with, be involved with the land health assessment, the allotment management plan, the utilization and compliance monitoring. Advocate for higher grazing fees. There are lots of organizations that support your cause, but few of them also support hunting. You might have to go it alone.

I think we need to really stop pretending that Farming and Ranching is good for wildlife. It isn’t

There is some truth in your statement, but considering that outright habitat conversion is a bigger threat to wildlife than habitat modification/degradation at this point in time, maintaining open spaces is important. Public land grazing isn't going away anytime soon, the best case scenario is to work for the best outcome possible.

Compare historical pre wholesale agricultural populations of Whitetail deer say in the Midwest during the 16th and 1700s compared to today and I think you’d have a little bit of an eye-opener.

You got data from the 1600s? Post it up!

 

[Trial153]

Except we live in the present and not the 1700's.
Used to have a huntable population of dinosaurs too.

The present is this. Farming and ranching isn’t wildlife and habitat friendly from an ecological standpoint. What it is profitable. But good for wildlife, no way

 

[Ben Lamb]

Aldo Leopold reading this thread, wondering why he even bothered.

 

[Deleted member 16864]

Hunt talkers,

What are your thoughts on grazing fees? In doing research after a frustrating year in the breaks - seeing elk concentrated on ungrazed private really made me question some things.

Heres some thoughts:

1. Grazing fees are cheaper than 1980. Yes. That is right - it is cheaper today than in the ealry 80s to have cattle on public land. $2.31 per cow calf pair per month in 1980, $1.35 in 2024.
2. Montana and wyoming are number 7 and 14 respectively in terms of beef production - this begs the question - is this subsidy really worth it in critical areas? None of the other top 15 states have didly for public land.
3. Ovegrazing has been an a
anecdotal observation in the breaks. I get it. Droughts happen - however - why does the public land and wild life have to suffer first? If it is cheaper to use a public resource than your own - it seems problematic.
4. Cattle grazing can be very complementary and/or beneficial to elk grazing in certain areas and topogralhy - however they eat a lot of the same food.

There are members with regulation experience, ranchers, and wildlife ecology specialisits. All with likely more informed opinions than mine - and im asking the questions to spark the discussion.

How do we get more elk on the mountain and a more even trade on the food that wildlife eat? Or - am i truly missing something?

P.s. an ugly beneficial truth of outfitting - it makes landowners with a lot of critical winter range habitat more tolerant to wildlife and especially elk.

Ban public grazing in the breaks because you’re mad about the elk holing up on private? Really?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Just curious myself now. in the case one is so neglected is there any reclamation plan for damages... like say a mining operation would be responsible for having? Not to change off grazing but permits for mining you have to have a reclamation plan I think

I wish that was a topic. Cheatgrass infestation comes to mind.

Got it:

Complaining- check

Fantasy about what you want-check

I expressly dont want that. Think you are misunderstanding.

 

[Deleted member 13457]

How much do hunters pay to hunt public land vs private?? How much do they overuse and abuse it? How many weeds do they spread? Are they being “subsidized” by the American taxpayer because the Dept of Interior doesn’t make money managing land for them??
Geezuz Christ, it must be wintertime….

 

[Forkyfinder]

Ban public grazing in the breaks because you’re mad about the elk holing up on private? Really?

No - have you compared the wildlife on the CMR to the BLM? Or the feed available in fall or winter on the BLM, CMR, and private? What do you think happens in the winter? Why did the elk end up in those ranches after hunting pressure is gone ?

My assessment is they winter there - cause they have limited feed on a lot of public.

Not about them holing up. Theyd do that during hunting season.

Haha if it was about hunting getting better there - shutting down roads would be the topic.

 

[Forkyfinder]

How much do hunters pay to hunt public land vs private?? How much do they overuse and abuse it? How many weeds do they spread? Are they being “subsidized” by the American taxpayer because the Dept of Interior doesn’t make money managing land for them??
Geezuz Christ, it must be wintertime….

If there was a fee assessed (maybe there should be?), do you feel like it would be fair to have it decreased since 1980?

 

[Deleted member 13457]

If there was a fee assessed (maybe there should be?), do you feel like it would be fair to have it decreased since 1980?

Based on the quality now vs then, yes

 

[Deleted member 13457]

In all seriousness, the fee is too low, but it’s apples and oranges comparing grazing on most public land to that on private.

 

[Steiny77]

The present is this. Farming and ranching isn’t wildlife and habitat friendly from an ecological standpoint. What it is profitable. But good for wildlife, no way

Don't necessarily disagree, but if you eat, you contribute to this.

 

[Deleted member 16864]

If there was a fee assessed (maybe there should be?), do you feel like it would be fair to have it decreased since 1980?

Why do we need to assess a fee? If we need money the government can just print it.

 

[Oak]

Got it:

Complaining- check

Fantasy about what you want-check

Action?

This has all been discussed for decades, your ideas are not new. Become an interested public for the allotments you are concerned with, be involved with the land health assessment, the allotment management plan, the utilization and compliance monitoring. Advocate for higher grazing fees. There are lots of organizations that support your cause, but few of them also support hunting. You might have to go it alone.


There is some truth in your statement, but considering that outright habitat conversion is a bigger threat to wildlife than habitat modification/degradation at this point in time, maintaining open spaces is important. Public land grazing isn't going away anytime soon, the best case scenario is to work for the best outcome possible.



You got data from the 1600s? Post it up!

Good fodder for multiple discussions in this post. Unfortunately I have a Zoom schedule today that would kill the average man.

Become an interested public for the allotments you are concerned with, be involved with the land health assessment, the allotment management plan, the utilization and compliance monitoring. Advocate for higher grazing fees.

This is how it’s supposed to work, but you and I both know that it doesn’t. At least not in my neck of the woods. 100% of even slightly controversial grazing allotments are renewed via 402 authority with no NEPA. Zero opportunity to engage.

There are lots of organizations that support your cause, but few of them also support hunting. You might have to go it alone.

Accurate. Why is that?

There is some truth in your statement, but considering that outright habitat conversion is a bigger threat to wildlife than habitat modification/degradation at this point in time, maintaining open spaces is important.

“Grazing is better than the ranchers going out of business and selling to developers” is a big red fish. It’s not a binary decision, as shown by the link you posted above where you tagged me.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Don't necessarily disagree, but it you eat, you contribute to this.

Theres around 90 million cattle in America. Around 1.5 million of them are in montana and 2/3rds (another million) of that in Wy.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Hunt talkers,

What are your thoughts on grazing fees? In doing research after a frustrating year in the breaks - seeing elk concentrated on ungrazed private really made me question some things.

Heres some thoughts:

1. Grazing fees are cheaper than 1980. Yes. That is right - it is cheaper today than in the ealry 80s to have cattle on public land. $2.31 per cow calf pair per month in 1980, $1.35 in 2024.
2. Montana and wyoming are number 7 and 14 respectively in terms of beef production - this begs the question - is this subsidy really worth it in critical areas? None of the other top 15 states have didly for public land.
3. Ovegrazing has been an a
anecdotal observation in the breaks. I get it. Droughts happen - however - why does the public land and wild life have to suffer first? If it is cheaper to use a public resource than your own - it seems problematic.
4. Cattle grazing can be very complementary and/or beneficial to elk grazing in certain areas and topogralhy - however they eat a lot of the same food.

There are members with regulation experience, ranchers, and wildlife ecology specialisits. All with likely more informed opinions than mine - and im asking the questions to spark the discussion.

How do we get more elk on the mountain and a more even trade on the food that wildlife eat? Or - am i truly missing something?

P.s. an ugly beneficial truth of outfitting - it makes landowners with a lot of critical winter range habitat more tolerant to wildlife and especially elk.

Alright. By no means am I versed in Ag economics, but I've been smart enough to shut up and listen to some damned good ranchers & farmers, like @cgasner1.

1.) Other units of cost for landowners are far higher today than they were in the 1980's. Focusing only the AUM price ignores the economics of a ranching operation, cost of land, increases in rates on state trust lands, and private as well. In the past, operators could increase their fee title for a reasonable amount, but as the real estate economics lead towards investment rather than production, this is now far more difficult for an traditional operation to be profitable. Increasing the cost of an AUM may seem like simple math for us, but we're not the ones paying the feed bill in the winter, etc.

2.) The value of public land grazing in western states is far beyond just the benefit for the producer. Those subsidized rates help large blocks of private land stay intact. A study was just released in MT that showed in the last decade 1 million acres of ag land has been converted to housing. Those ostensibly are lands that hosted a lot of wildlife and provided recreation close to urban centers. You can't hunt a subdivision (unless approved under an urban deer mgt plan) and critical winter range is eaten up at alarming rates. Wildlife do not recognize boundaries, and so to think that we can kick producers off of public range while maintaining winter range, migration corridors, calving/fawning grounds ignores how wildlife use the land in favor of a human-centric position.

3.) Overgrazing absolutely is an issue. We tend to focus more on who eats what rather than why isn't there enough. This is the habitat issue, and especially in the west where "the new normal" is still well below the 100 year average for precipitation. Add in the fact that those public ranges are often times not the prime ag lands (otherwise they would have been settled) and a distinct lack of funding (Congress' fault) for habitat restoration and enforcement/compliance, weather events & biological events like grasshoppers and we seem to have an issue where we continue to argue about the smaller pieces of a declining pie rather than how we make the pie bigger and more nutritious.

4.) Elk in the west aren't suffering from a lack of forage. Most states are seeing expansions in the population rather than contractions.

If you want more elk on public land, make public land a place elk want to be. Improve forage, reduce pressure (year round) and enact recreation systems that favor wildlife rather than the human desire to play.

Public land grazing is a massive conservation tool. Like all tools, how it is used matters the most. I have zero problem with $1.35 an AUM because it keeps huge swaths of wildlife habitat intact. The notion that agriculture isn't wildlife friendly is simply untrue. Some practices can be, for sure. Fence-to-fence farming has reduced pheasant hunting across the midwest and monoculture farming significantly reduces the biodiversity of an area. But ungulates love grain, and so do birds. regenerative agriculture is taking off, and if we were smart as a nation, we'd recognize that ranchers & farmers are just small business owners looking to live their lives, while engaging in something worthwhile. If we start from the basic notion that people in agriculture are our neighbors, cousins, uncles, teachers, etc, we can find a better balance, while ensuring that agriculture always has a place on the landscape.

Making this discussion one of conflict ensures nothing good will come about.