Got a call from DS
- Thread starter A-con
- Start date
D
Deerslayer
Guest
Younghunter........you leave me scratching my head on that one.....sounds like you got it all figured out. ....stopping overgrazing=stopping hunting...yep, I'm seeing it all clearer now.
For the record......you can quote me as "not being anti-rancher" at all.......but rather being "anti-wildlife abuse".
When I stand there and read a sign explaining "important and critical wintering grounds"....and then see a few thousand head of cattle ambling on up the road because they had depleted the winter ground to a mere dirt field.....yes, my blood pressure does rise, and I do get pissed off. The land the cattle were moving to(private holdings) had a real nice stand of grasses on it, so I think the cattle will be just fine.........now if we can just teach those elk and deer to eat the cowshit (only thing left behind on this particular winter ground)we'll be just fine and everyone will be happy.
It saddened me to think of that annual migration of many many miles that the elk make every year and what they will find after their long journey......and the pitiful state it was in now. It will be an ugly scene there about late Febuary or March you can bet on that. Considering the drought, then factor in the poor condition the cattle left the winter ground in......the die off could be catastrophic, but may have a lingering effect for years to come....what with not only the dead, but the severly stressed as well. But hey...nobody wants to hear this shit right?...it's not our problem....who really cares....as long as we can still buy a tag in a few months, right?
....and so it goes when the greed of man meets the welfare of wildlife......we WIN! we WIN!....everytime
For the record......you can quote me as "not being anti-rancher" at all.......but rather being "anti-wildlife abuse".
When I stand there and read a sign explaining "important and critical wintering grounds"....and then see a few thousand head of cattle ambling on up the road because they had depleted the winter ground to a mere dirt field.....yes, my blood pressure does rise, and I do get pissed off. The land the cattle were moving to(private holdings) had a real nice stand of grasses on it, so I think the cattle will be just fine.........now if we can just teach those elk and deer to eat the cowshit (only thing left behind on this particular winter ground)we'll be just fine and everyone will be happy.
It saddened me to think of that annual migration of many many miles that the elk make every year and what they will find after their long journey......and the pitiful state it was in now. It will be an ugly scene there about late Febuary or March you can bet on that. Considering the drought, then factor in the poor condition the cattle left the winter ground in......the die off could be catastrophic, but may have a lingering effect for years to come....what with not only the dead, but the severly stressed as well. But hey...nobody wants to hear this shit right?...it's not our problem....who really cares....as long as we can still buy a tag in a few months, right?
....and so it goes when the greed of man meets the welfare of wildlife......we WIN! we WIN!....everytime
Wyodeerhunter
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2002
- Messages
- 2,150
DS,
I understand that you are not anti-ranching, but making those certain comments would give that perseception. Anways in no way on public land is it the ranchers fault for overgrazing(at least in WY), its the range riders fault. So I would suggest for you to call up the rangerider for that county and give him a piece of your mind Because obviously there is no grass left on the winter range because he hasn't instructed the rancher to move his cattle. Lazy rangerider= overgrazed public lands. I think its pretty sad that its up to one individual(someone who didn't even go to college for plants etc) to decide when a rancher has to move his cows or not. Now if he did tell the rancher to move and the rancher didn't, he gets a fine for everyone one of his cows, highly unlikey the rancher didn't move his cows. He just wasn't instructed to. So if I was you call and complain and i bet you if you have others too, that winter range will look a lot better next fall, and maybe there will be a new range rider.
I understand that you are not anti-ranching, but making those certain comments would give that perseception. Anways in no way on public land is it the ranchers fault for overgrazing(at least in WY), its the range riders fault. So I would suggest for you to call up the rangerider for that county and give him a piece of your mind Because obviously there is no grass left on the winter range because he hasn't instructed the rancher to move his cattle. Lazy rangerider= overgrazed public lands. I think its pretty sad that its up to one individual(someone who didn't even go to college for plants etc) to decide when a rancher has to move his cows or not. Now if he did tell the rancher to move and the rancher didn't, he gets a fine for everyone one of his cows, highly unlikey the rancher didn't move his cows. He just wasn't instructed to. So if I was you call and complain and i bet you if you have others too, that winter range will look a lot better next fall, and maybe there will be a new range rider.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Younghunter said, "The day public land grazing is gone, hunting is sure to follow."
The day public lands grazing ends, is the day the wildlife celebrate. It would also end all the BS game damage claims that ranchers make. No wonder elk and deer head to private ground, the BLM and State lands are nuked.
Elkhunter and Elkchsr, hey, when you guys shower together do you take turns bending over to pick up the soap?
The day public lands grazing ends, is the day the wildlife celebrate. It would also end all the BS game damage claims that ranchers make. No wonder elk and deer head to private ground, the BLM and State lands are nuked.
Elkhunter and Elkchsr, hey, when you guys shower together do you take turns bending over to pick up the soap?
IndyJay
New member
I knew I'd be reading about you guys real soon! Sorry our connection sucked last week, DS... as you could tell, I was feeling no pain!
Headed out to Cali on Wednesday to meet my new coworkers! Will be hooking up with CaliHunter Wednesday evening... he ain't queer or nothin' is he?
Take care and we'll catch up soon
Buzz... decided on the .257 Roberts Improved for my deer/antelope rifle! Close to 25/06 performace in a short action... can't wait to test it on a Wyoming 'lope!
Headed out to Cali on Wednesday to meet my new coworkers! Will be hooking up with CaliHunter Wednesday evening... he ain't queer or nothin' is he?
Take care and we'll catch up soon
Buzz... decided on the .257 Roberts Improved for my deer/antelope rifle! Close to 25/06 performace in a short action... can't wait to test it on a Wyoming 'lope!
Calif. Hunter
Active member
Depends on how pretty you are, Jay.
Wyodeerhunter
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2002
- Messages
- 2,150
Yes buzz the wildlife will celebrate because then after that there will be no one hunting them. Sorry that you don't believe that the ranchers care about the wildlife, but they do, and they have more say and power than the average joe, so lets get rid of public grazing(the anti's are) and then the anti's will get rid of you hunting, and then you will have to hunt private land and you will be right with the cows all over again. Either way I hope you like beef.
BuzzH
Well-known member
No, I dont like beef. Thats why I kill a few elk, deer, and antelope each year. I hate public lands grazing enough to not support the beef industry.
By the way, how do you figure that hunting will go away if public lands grazing stops? I dont see the parallel.
I'll agree there are a very few ranchers out there who do care about wildlife, I commend them for it. But, theres also a lot who would much rather take a mini-14 and mow them down so they can have more feed for their cattle, sheep, etc.
The point is, keep the BLM and State lands in good shape, and we wont have to rely on ranchers for wildlife habitat.
By the way, how do you figure that hunting will go away if public lands grazing stops? I dont see the parallel.
I'll agree there are a very few ranchers out there who do care about wildlife, I commend them for it. But, theres also a lot who would much rather take a mini-14 and mow them down so they can have more feed for their cattle, sheep, etc.
The point is, keep the BLM and State lands in good shape, and we wont have to rely on ranchers for wildlife habitat.
Wyodeerhunter
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2002
- Messages
- 2,150
Buzz,
BLM land is multi-use land. That means that there can be many uses for it. Well if they get rid of public land grazing(one use) it wouldn't take much to get rid of another use(hunting). Ranching and Hunting are two of the oldest uses in history, but since they are so old people think they are outdated. Hunting isn't a right, its a privilge(sp?). So it could be gone in nothing flat. Ranching is going downhill, gotta love that beef from S.A. and other countries. And the general public doesn't understand hunting. So why spend money on those things when we can just simply eliminate them??? And the truth is that most ranchers obey the laws, just like most hunters, but in ranching a bad rancher can show up more than a unethical hunter. Like I said earlier, the best way to get to the rancher is to talk to the rangerider. I can bet the family farm that if you and DS both report it, action would be taken. But sadly the conditions of overgrazing takes years to overcome, but instead of bitching about it, do something! I know exactly what you guys are talking about. The ranchers cows feed on the winter range in the spring when the grass is growing and eat everything, and then they progress up the mountain. Lazy Rancher. But he will stay lazy until he starts losing money. Report it, and he gets fined. My father is the range rider for sweetwater county, and he gives them 1 week to move the cows, and if they dont move every damn cow recieves a fine. I'm in the hills almost every weekend and during spring is the time to nail them. If you see cows in the winter range during spring, report it and mention its crucial wildlife habitat(big thing in WY) and the range rider will pay the rancher a visit.
Whew! outta breath! Now don't get me started on wild horses....
Oh and 15 years ago there was thousands of more sheep and cattle on public lands and the deer numbers were incredible! Now there is hardly any public grazing(sad but true) and the deer herd still isn't good. Its easy to blame ranchers.
BLM land is multi-use land. That means that there can be many uses for it. Well if they get rid of public land grazing(one use) it wouldn't take much to get rid of another use(hunting). Ranching and Hunting are two of the oldest uses in history, but since they are so old people think they are outdated. Hunting isn't a right, its a privilge(sp?). So it could be gone in nothing flat. Ranching is going downhill, gotta love that beef from S.A. and other countries. And the general public doesn't understand hunting. So why spend money on those things when we can just simply eliminate them??? And the truth is that most ranchers obey the laws, just like most hunters, but in ranching a bad rancher can show up more than a unethical hunter. Like I said earlier, the best way to get to the rancher is to talk to the rangerider. I can bet the family farm that if you and DS both report it, action would be taken. But sadly the conditions of overgrazing takes years to overcome, but instead of bitching about it, do something! I know exactly what you guys are talking about. The ranchers cows feed on the winter range in the spring when the grass is growing and eat everything, and then they progress up the mountain. Lazy Rancher. But he will stay lazy until he starts losing money. Report it, and he gets fined. My father is the range rider for sweetwater county, and he gives them 1 week to move the cows, and if they dont move every damn cow recieves a fine. I'm in the hills almost every weekend and during spring is the time to nail them. If you see cows in the winter range during spring, report it and mention its crucial wildlife habitat(big thing in WY) and the range rider will pay the rancher a visit.
Whew! outta breath! Now don't get me started on wild horses....
Oh and 15 years ago there was thousands of more sheep and cattle on public lands and the deer numbers were incredible! Now there is hardly any public grazing(sad but true) and the deer herd still isn't good. Its easy to blame ranchers.
BuzzH
Well-known member
BLM land is multi-use, but wouldnt it be nice is say 50% of the available forage was used for wildlife?
Wouldnt it also be nice if 60% of BLM lands werent in poor condition and over-grazed by cattle (BLM's own statistics).
By the way I have done quite a bit of letter writing and work-related research on grazing issues, land stewardship, and range improvement.
Tell your Dad to write a few fines for me.
Wouldnt it also be nice if 60% of BLM lands werent in poor condition and over-grazed by cattle (BLM's own statistics).
By the way I have done quite a bit of letter writing and work-related research on grazing issues, land stewardship, and range improvement.
Tell your Dad to write a few fines for me.
Elkhunter
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deerslayer:
Bill...we were scouting for big bulls for future hunts.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cool
That is very understandable DS. Just wasn't expecting the wide range of territory you said.
How were the prospects? Hope it was what you guys were looking for.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzH:
Elkhunter and Elkchsr, hey, when you guys shower together do you take turns bending over to pick up the soap? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now Buzz, are you fantasizing about me and ELKCHSR in the showers? Shame on you. Is there something you want to tell us all? Are you coming out of the closet after all these years?
Bill...we were scouting for big bulls for future hunts.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cool
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzH:
Elkhunter and Elkchsr, hey, when you guys shower together do you take turns bending over to pick up the soap? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now Buzz, are you fantasizing about me and ELKCHSR in the showers? Shame on you. Is there something you want to tell us all? Are you coming out of the closet after all these years?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And the general public doesn't understand hunting. So why spend money on those things when we can just simply eliminate them??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't think of any way the general, non-hunting public is spending money to support hunting. Supporting ranchers on the other hand...
Oak
I can't think of any way the general, non-hunting public is spending money to support hunting. Supporting ranchers on the other hand...
Oak
Ithaca 37
New member
Younghunter, "Anways in no way on public land is it the ranchers fault for overgrazing(at least in WY), its the range riders fault." Who is responsible for moving the cows? You probably think it's the FBIs fault when a bank gets robbed! Are those ranchers so stupid they can't see when the range is overgrazed?
D
Deerslayer
Guest
Great point Itaca...just the fact that a rancher would not move until forced too even though there was obvious overgrazing speaks volumes about his concern for the land and wildlife he was sponging off of.
Bill.......nope..we didn't get to see what we should have there.....like I said earlier...the range was in such poor condition......the elks were heading back high to nibble on bark and what ever else they could find that hadn'r been desimated by the cattle. This found them in some steep and rough terrain, thus making our cow hunt a real challenge. I can only imagine the added stress of them having to saty high in the worst of the winter.....more energy loss in deeper snows, as well as poorer forage...but hey, it's not like they have much of a choice......unless of course eating cowshit becomes a viable option.
We were hunting up in your country......beautiful stuff up there.
Younghunter.....you sound like a lot of radicals I know.......
"stop overgrazing=stop hunting".......
"public not wanting to fund Hunting"......
"rachers care as much about wildlife as they do their own cattle"
......I fell to see any connection between the stopage of overgrazing and the loss of hunting priveledges....
.....and the general non-hunting public doesn't fund hunting...hunters do with the sales of hunting license and donations to wildlife groups and projects......
...and if ranchers loved the wildlife so damn much, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I read EVERY year where they either are, or wanting to decimate herds of deer and elk that enter their property. Most look upon wildlife as scourge...and I understand why, but don't color the picture a pretty pink when it is obviously a bloody red.
.....and I want to go on record as saying it is unfair to lump all ranchers in, because many are great stewards of the land......but realistically, the ones who are not are enough to give them all a black eye as a whole, and that is too bad.
And the Younhunter says "but in ranching a bad rancher can show up more than a unethical hunter."
.......now that is a line of BS if I ever saw one! Almost every week we see a poacher or slob hunter spattered all over the news...and many times because us hunters won't stand for it and regulate our own.....and turn their sorry asses in...
...when is the last time you remember see a "bad rancher" in the news?....if you can remember, I bet it wasn't weekly or even close, but let a hunter screw up and his nut sack will be displayed publicly and most times he is kicked out of hunting for a time. Now there is an idea......a rancher found to be overgrazing being kicked out of ranching, or his tractors seized, home taken.....yepper, I think we are on to something!
In reality though, it will never happen. The bleeding hearts will keep getting the "free lunch" card, and the wildlife will continue to draw the short stick. But don't you fool yourself into thinking we will sit by and let hunting go the way of the dinosaur. True, our numbers are few compared to non-hunters......but I believe most hunters are cut from a different metal.....staying truer to their original roots. We were born hunters as were our ancestors....and after thousands of years, we are the ones who refuse to evolve into anything less, even though we no longer have to continue to hunt for survival.........but it IS who we are, and we stay true to ourselves...........in my opinion, the strongest of our species. I don't think any of us are willing to loose that........
Bill.......nope..we didn't get to see what we should have there.....like I said earlier...the range was in such poor condition......the elks were heading back high to nibble on bark and what ever else they could find that hadn'r been desimated by the cattle. This found them in some steep and rough terrain, thus making our cow hunt a real challenge. I can only imagine the added stress of them having to saty high in the worst of the winter.....more energy loss in deeper snows, as well as poorer forage...but hey, it's not like they have much of a choice......unless of course eating cowshit becomes a viable option.
We were hunting up in your country......beautiful stuff up there.
Younghunter.....you sound like a lot of radicals I know.......
"stop overgrazing=stop hunting".......
"public not wanting to fund Hunting"......
"rachers care as much about wildlife as they do their own cattle"
......I fell to see any connection between the stopage of overgrazing and the loss of hunting priveledges....
.....and the general non-hunting public doesn't fund hunting...hunters do with the sales of hunting license and donations to wildlife groups and projects......
...and if ranchers loved the wildlife so damn much, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I read EVERY year where they either are, or wanting to decimate herds of deer and elk that enter their property. Most look upon wildlife as scourge...and I understand why, but don't color the picture a pretty pink when it is obviously a bloody red.
And the Younhunter says "but in ranching a bad rancher can show up more than a unethical hunter."
.......now that is a line of BS if I ever saw one! Almost every week we see a poacher or slob hunter spattered all over the news...and many times because us hunters won't stand for it and regulate our own.....and turn their sorry asses in...
...when is the last time you remember see a "bad rancher" in the news?....if you can remember, I bet it wasn't weekly or even close, but let a hunter screw up and his nut sack will be displayed publicly and most times he is kicked out of hunting for a time. Now there is an idea......a rancher found to be overgrazing being kicked out of ranching, or his tractors seized, home taken.....yepper, I think we are on to something!
In reality though, it will never happen. The bleeding hearts will keep getting the "free lunch" card, and the wildlife will continue to draw the short stick. But don't you fool yourself into thinking we will sit by and let hunting go the way of the dinosaur. True, our numbers are few compared to non-hunters......but I believe most hunters are cut from a different metal.....staying truer to their original roots. We were born hunters as were our ancestors....and after thousands of years, we are the ones who refuse to evolve into anything less, even though we no longer have to continue to hunt for survival.........but it IS who we are, and we stay true to ourselves...........in my opinion, the strongest of our species. I don't think any of us are willing to loose that........
Muledeer4me
New member
Younghunter,good post.
DS,was it overgrazing or all the lazy fatassed ATV riders and road hunters that moved those elk out?
Sounds like a good hunt though way to go one the elk.
I usually count myself lucky when everyone else stays on the road to hunt off there ATVs on from there trucks ,it leaves more room for me to hunt without the added burden of running into other hunter's.
I wonder how much bitching and complaining we would hear if all those guys left there trucks and ATV to follow you and buzz up the mountian.
Be carefull what you wish for
Younghunter is right on in saying the anti-hunters are using the ranchers as a stepping stone in getting us off of public lands.
Heck Ithaca's own link showed us how it all goes hand in hand.
http://www.compassionatespirit.com/
Dont forget to check out the book section,Ithaca's link was to show us the anti-grazing book they had on his site.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-04-2003 15:55: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>
DS,was it overgrazing or all the lazy fatassed ATV riders and road hunters that moved those elk out?
Sounds like a good hunt though way to go one the elk.
I usually count myself lucky when everyone else stays on the road to hunt off there ATVs on from there trucks ,it leaves more room for me to hunt without the added burden of running into other hunter's.
I wonder how much bitching and complaining we would hear if all those guys left there trucks and ATV to follow you and buzz up the mountian.
Be carefull what you wish for
Younghunter is right on in saying the anti-hunters are using the ranchers as a stepping stone in getting us off of public lands.
Heck Ithaca's own link showed us how it all goes hand in hand.
http://www.compassionatespirit.com/
Dont forget to check out the book section,Ithaca's link was to show us the anti-grazing book they had on his site.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-04-2003 15:55: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>
Elkhunter
New member
DS, you should have called me then, my horse and TCHunter's have been needing to get a little exercise. See that, you snooze you lose.
BuzzH
Well-known member
MD4ME, you really just dont get it. You'll defend ATV's over any common sense.
On the topic of those elk, it was a combination of ATV pressure and lack of forage. The ATV bubbas didnt have a chance, the elk werent on the road, which to them meant they may as well be on the moon. The lower range was in such poor condition (from cattle), I wouldnt be suprised if the elk would find more forage on the moon. It was the absolute worse condition I've ever seen a supposed winter range in...ever. Terrible, and if I was an elk living there, I'd be a lot more worried about starving to death than being killed by a wolf or a griz.
You're also wrong, I wouldnt bitch about someone with a big enough set of balls to step of their machine and hike 2500 vertical feet to kill a cow elk. Matter of fact, I'd commend them for it, and congratulate them for not being like so many other lazy bastards. I'm not like you, I'm not jealous of other people who hunt hard, WALK, and get their game, I'm happy for them. What I hate is some shithead that rides an atv all over the country, wont hike 10 feet, and claims to be a hunter. That ticks me off, and I wouldnt walk across the street to piss on them or their machine if they were both on fire. I sure as hell wouldnt congratulate them on any game they kill. Congratulate them for what? Turning on their ATV? Getting plumb lucky? Putting a nice sneak on their game animal from the seat of their ATV? Learning a lot about the game they're pursuing? Really getting away from it all? All the hard work that went into riding that ATV all day? Yeah, right, top quality hunt and such awesome hunters to accomplish it.
MD4ME said, "Younghunter is right on in saying the anti-hunters are using the ranchers as a stepping stone in getting us off of public lands."
Thats funny, really funny. That isnt even close to the truth, just a bunch of BS, through and through. How do you figure the above statement to be true? Present a decent argument proving that...I can hardly wait. This ought to be good!
On the topic of those elk, it was a combination of ATV pressure and lack of forage. The ATV bubbas didnt have a chance, the elk werent on the road, which to them meant they may as well be on the moon. The lower range was in such poor condition (from cattle), I wouldnt be suprised if the elk would find more forage on the moon. It was the absolute worse condition I've ever seen a supposed winter range in...ever. Terrible, and if I was an elk living there, I'd be a lot more worried about starving to death than being killed by a wolf or a griz.
You're also wrong, I wouldnt bitch about someone with a big enough set of balls to step of their machine and hike 2500 vertical feet to kill a cow elk. Matter of fact, I'd commend them for it, and congratulate them for not being like so many other lazy bastards. I'm not like you, I'm not jealous of other people who hunt hard, WALK, and get their game, I'm happy for them. What I hate is some shithead that rides an atv all over the country, wont hike 10 feet, and claims to be a hunter. That ticks me off, and I wouldnt walk across the street to piss on them or their machine if they were both on fire. I sure as hell wouldnt congratulate them on any game they kill. Congratulate them for what? Turning on their ATV? Getting plumb lucky? Putting a nice sneak on their game animal from the seat of their ATV? Learning a lot about the game they're pursuing? Really getting away from it all? All the hard work that went into riding that ATV all day? Yeah, right, top quality hunt and such awesome hunters to accomplish it.
MD4ME said, "Younghunter is right on in saying the anti-hunters are using the ranchers as a stepping stone in getting us off of public lands."
Thats funny, really funny. That isnt even close to the truth, just a bunch of BS, through and through. How do you figure the above statement to be true? Present a decent argument proving that...I can hardly wait. This ought to be good!
A-con
New member
Well, congratulations on some elk well hunted.
DS, that last post of your's was good stuff.
Around here, on the left cost, cows have the right of way to a point that makes me sick.
If you tied a rocket on to one and shot him into the sky and an airplane ran into it, the law would blame the plane.
Mant times I've hiked into a favorite hunting spot before dawn only to find a hundred or so cattel turning prime deer country into wastland.
I know ranchers have a hard time making ends meet, even though you pay way to much for beef in a store, the ranchers don't make squat.
So whats the happy meidum ? If you take away public grazing, hamburger will cost $5.00 a lb.
DS, that last post of your's was good stuff.
Around here, on the left cost, cows have the right of way to a point that makes me sick.
If you tied a rocket on to one and shot him into the sky and an airplane ran into it, the law would blame the plane.
Mant times I've hiked into a favorite hunting spot before dawn only to find a hundred or so cattel turning prime deer country into wastland.
I know ranchers have a hard time making ends meet, even though you pay way to much for beef in a store, the ranchers don't make squat.
So whats the happy meidum ? If you take away public grazing, hamburger will cost $5.00 a lb.
Wyodeerhunter
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2002
- Messages
- 2,150
Blah Blah Blah.
Ignorance is going to cost you all.
Just answer this: If grazing is so bad on public land why is it when we had 4x as many cattle and 8x as many sheep on public lands in the 60's 70 and 80's why was the hunting still the best?
Public Grazing isn't the problem. Its the management.
Ernesto
Ignorance is going to cost you all.
Just answer this: If grazing is so bad on public land why is it when we had 4x as many cattle and 8x as many sheep on public lands in the 60's 70 and 80's why was the hunting still the best?
Public Grazing isn't the problem. Its the management.
Ernesto
