Get the Cattle Out, Bring on the Bison

[BigHornyRam]

Funny, no mention of who plans to assume payment of the grazing leases. 10 to 1 Bina Robinson is a vegan. So what is going to happen next, after the cattleman are moved of the land. Golf courses, trinket shops, and condos I'm betting Paul


Anti-cattle, pro-bison letters surprise Forest Service
By the Associated Press


ENNIS - A surprise stumbling block has complicated the Forest Service's periodic review of grazing allotments on 37,000 acres of federal land west of Yellowstone National Park.

"We didn't see this one coming at all. It probably set us back a couple of weeks," said Mark Petroni, Madison District ranger of the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest.

More than 150 letters from across the nation and Canada ask the Forest Service to kick cattle off 12 of the allotments in Antelope Basin so Yellowstone bison can graze there safely. They came from supporters of the Buffalo Field Campaign, whose members have tried to protect the bison from state-sponsored slaughter for several years.




The basin extends from south of Wade and Cliff Lakes south to the Idaho border and is about 35 miles from the park.

"It's some of the most productive grasslands that we have on the entire (730,000-acre) Madison District," Petroni said.

The Forest Service and local ranchers have spent time and money developing an intensive grazing management system in the area, he added.

The buffalo periodically wander out of the park into Montana in search of food. Some carry brucellosis, which causes domestic cattle to abort. A federal-state management plan to protect domestic cattle from infection allows bison to be hazed back into the park or, in some cases, sent to slaughter.

The letters came from as far away as Calgary, California and New York state. They asked for the agency to consider an alternative that would remove domestic livestock from the area in hopes of it becoming summer and winter habitat for bison.

"The long-term public benefit of having a free roaming herd of bison on the Beaverhead National Forest outweighs the short-term benefit of continued livestock grazing, as the Beaverhead would be one of two national forests providing habitat for free-roaming bison," Daniel Brister, project director for the Buffalo Field Campaign, said in one letter.

Another came from Bina Robinson, director for Citizens for Planetary Health in Swain, N.Y.

"After slaughtering this species (bison) to the verge of extinction, we filled up their habitat with cows for the benefit of a small number of cattlemen," Robinson wrote. "It is scandalous that Montana's Department of Livestock is allowed to round up and slaughter any bison that wander out of Yellowstone National Park under the scientifically unsupported premise that they can infect domestic cattle with brucellosis, especially when the cows are not there."

Petroni said about 10 ranching families summer their cattle in the Antelope Basin area.

"The ranchers have just kind of rolled their eyes, kind of like 'What's next?' " Petroni said.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I say bring on the bison, that will give us more to shoot at when they wander off of those leases..LOL...
Paul, am I still in on the next bison hunt you plan on taking one of these days...

I am still hoping I can jump in with you guy's on that muley hunt also, if fires arn't taking up my plans...

 

[JoseCuervo]

Since Grazing Leases cost the taxpayers money, then there would be no reason to be concerned about who would pay the lousy $1.35 per month. Instead, we would have lower taxes. So really, your question is who should get the Welfare Ranchers subsidy, once they quit the leases. I guess I will volunteer to get taxpayer money stuffed into my pockets....

 

[Oak]

Yeah, what Elkgunner said, plus...

Think of the money the G&F could make on buffalo licences? Weren't you the one complaining about lost hunting opportunities, Paul?

Oak

 

[Leanwolf]

You guys who hate the "welfare ranchers" so much, and walk hand-in-glove, joined at the sides like Siamese twins with the tree hugging, rat squeezing, anti-hunting, anti-fishing, anti-mining, anti-gun, anti-just-about-everything zealots, don't REALLY believe that once they/you get rid of the "welfare ranchers" and run in the bucolic buffalo, that THEY will then allow you enablers to truck up there with your evil rifles and kill those poor little near-extinct beautiful bison, do you??

Is it possible you are that Naive & Ignorant of their eventual goals and agenda???

Quite possibly, quite possibly.

L.W.

 

[Oak]

They're killing them now, aren't they?

Oak

 

[JoseCuervo]

Leanwolf,

Thanks for warning us about the conspiracy theories. I am sure "they" have it all figured out, and we are being duped into "their" carefully laid traps. And who should we look for to save us from this conspiracy???? Conspiracy theories only work in Hollywood. In real life, they are about the same as herding cats.

And I, for one, am not joined at the hips with the anti-fishing groups. I am fighting the anti-s (grain farmers on the Palouse, Welfare Ranchers, etc..) who are the ones trying to take away our fishing rights.

Please tell me what good it is to have the right to fish, if there isn't a fish in the River? I have confidence that I can fight to keep the rights to fish from the Peta-type groups, but there is no way you can assure me that there will be fish in the river until we breach the dams.

So on this issue, give me healthy public lands, turn some buffalo loose, and let me see if I can get the right to hunt them. Don't try and tell me that I am better off having Angus cattle on the land, as I have zero chance of being allowed to hunt them. And if I lose, I would rather have rivers full of Salmon that I can at least watch, as opposed to overgrazed meadows full of black cows.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkgunner,

I knew it! I knew those Palouse lentil farmers are teaming up with the vegans to kill off all the fish. I just knew it.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-01-2003 06:19: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

HAHAHAHA!!!Paul, that is good!!!LMAO!!!

 

[Leanwolf]

Elkgunner, you must be one of the world's worst fishermen! Can't catch a fish up there?? Hell, I've caught plenty of salmon, steelhead, and trout up on the Clearwater, the Snake, and the Salmon. Perhaps you should attend a "How To Catch Fish" school. Then maybe you can put a few fish in your freezer. Believe me, they taste great!!

Conspiracies?? There's no "conspiracy." The various groups who so easily manipulate you and the others who want to ban "welfare ranching, hunting, mining, logging, fishing, dams, guns, ATVs, ad nauseum," make it very plain what their EVENTUAL GOALS are.

You're just so uncomprehending of it, wallowing in your holier-then-thou idealism of "I just wanna save the world from those eeeeevil Mother Earth destroyers," that you are unable to see just how you're being used.

Just one example. Are you so naive as to believe that even in the event that wolves are ever delisted here in the lower 48, that there will ever be hunting seasons on them??? Your good buddies at those orgs you support, will throw lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit against any State orF&G Dept., that tries to institute a hunting season on wolves. They'll tie up the States and F&Gs forever... using the money you donate to them.

And that's just in the case of the wolves. The same tactics have been, are today, and will be applied in the future, to gain the control and power these groups seek.

That is PRECISELY what happened in the State Of Kalifornia -- and I was there, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about-- with the mountain lion issue. The anti-hunting, anti-gun crowd, led by the Great Heroes of some here, the Sierra Club, and other left wing outfits, got mountain lion hunting banned... for awhile, while the lions "recovered" population.

There was no shortage but the lie was preached so long that the ignorant believed it, as it played on their emotions, and their ignorance. Then years later, the same orgs finally got an initiative on the ballot to ban Mtn. Lion hunting FOREVER. With the help of the Marxist Socialist controlled media of Kalifornia, vomiting the emotional Big Lie each and every day, the initiative passed. Now, the lions are running all over the place, and there is nothing really that can be done about it. Unintended Consequences!

Believe what you want and support whomever you choose. Someday, when your good buddies at those orgs then turn on YOU, you'll cry and whimper and say, "Why, why are you taking away what I want to do?? I helped you all along and now you are goring MY ox?? Why?"

And, they'll give you a good kick in the rump, boosting you from the clubhouse, and tell you, "Elkgunner, you shoulda learned the Law of Unintended Consequences."

Have you ever gone to those who actually control the various "ban everything" orgs, and asked them, "Hey, fellows, after we get everything banned around these parts, what next???" If they'll even answer you, you might find it rather interesting.

Have fun... and make sure you attend that "How To Catch Fish" school.

L.W.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Leanwolf, that was very well said...Very well said indeed!!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Leanwolf,

How many salmon have you caught in Johnson, how many in Profile? How many salmon have you caught in Marsh, how many in Quartz? Leanwolf how many steelhead have you caught in Bear Valley Ck? How many Salmon in EFSF Salmon? How many in the Pahsemeroi, how many in the East Fork of the Salmon? How many in the Crooked? How many in the American? I guarantee you the answer is NONE!

You are amazing, I am laughing my a$$ off that some Californian would move to Idaho, and tell me how great the Salmon fishing is because I am allowed to fish 3 phuggin miles of the Little Salmon River, parking on the busiest highway in the entire state. Tell me again that I am have wonderful fishing by being allowed to fish 5 miles on the South Fork of the Salmon, if I can find a legal parking place. Tell me again how lucky I am that I can fish at the outlet pipe of the hatchery in Ahsaka for Clearwater Steelhead. Tell me how blessed I am that I can put the Jet boat in the water in Hell's Canyon an hour before daylight, and run the damn canyon in the dark, so I have a 1/2 chance of being the first boat in a hole on the Snake.

I love having a Californian move up and tell me what is good for me.

But hey, what do I know, I was only born here. I just live here. How the hell should I know what good is.

But Mr. Leanwolf, let's see how confident you are in the BS you spew. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is. I will bet you I catch more Salmon in the next 4 days than you do. I will take pictures of the fish, and post them here. And to show you that I am thinking of you, I will make the letter "L" in one of the pictures, and we will know it stands for Leanwolf or LOSER.

And if you are not fishing, then I will just bet that I land and take pictures of 4 salmon in the next 4 days. Are you man enough to take the bet? (Remember, you said I must be the worst fisherman.) And don't worry, I don't want your money. I will propose that you make the check out to Idaho Rivers United or Western Watersheds Project (your choice) if I should win. And if you should win, you can pick which fish-killing group you want me to send the check to. (Maybe Blue Ribbon or perhaps Idaho Power, or maybe Potlach? You decide...)

Let's make it friendly stakes, just so you don't lose too much of your bait money. How about the equal of a year's membership at Idaho Rivers United, maybe $25?

C'mon Leanwolf, you gonna step up? Hell Elkchsr was even telling you what a great post you had. You must be right.

I'll suggest we find some honest party to be the check handler. Maybe Moosie (he is honest, but not the brightest...

) or 1-Pointer (I think he is honest and brighter).

 

[Leanwolf]

Well, Elkgunner, you do have a petulant, childish temper, when someone disagrees with you, don't you. Kinda like a little grade school kid who didn't get his/her chance at the slide during recess.

As for your proposed wager, you'll have to go it alone on the salmon fishing expedition, as I'm not able to leave town this Fourth of July weekend.

I never said I was much of a fisherman, but I've caught fish on the rivers I mentioned. (I'll give the Pahsimeroi a shot later, as I was drawn for a Controlled bull elk tag in 37A, this fall. Wish me luck! I know you will.)

By the way, you oughta read your post again. You're the one who said you weren't able to catch any fish: I merely gave my opinion that if you can't catch fish on the Salmon, the Clearwater, or the Snake, you oughta take a fishing lesson class.

As for being from Califonria, I most certainly learned a lesson or three down there, about just how these left wing groups manipulate naive sympathizers, many, albeit, with good intentions, to bring about their goals, which, eventually, are to ban just about everything having to do with outdoor use of our lands.

I told of a classic example, re the California Mtn. lions, but you apparently ignored it... or weren't able to comprehend it.

Obviously, you're unable to notice how these same people manipulate you. You might read a book called "Man's Fate," by Andre Malraux. It'll detail just how a "hero" is manipulated, until he's no longer needed. When he finally realizes it, it's too late.

As to you're calling me a "loser," uhhhh, kinda wonder what you mean?? "Loser"??? I haven't lost anything, that I recall, although I admit I lost a Buck knife once, after cleaning an elk over in Wyoming.

Oh, wait a minute, I get it: a "loser" is someone who doesn't agree with the Great Elkgunner, Idaho's Self Annointed Towering Pyramid of Intellect.

As I said before: believe what you want. Hope you have a great four day weekend, snagging in all those fish.

Your Most Humble & Obedient Servant, L.W.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Well, Leanwolf, you may be a great writer, but you aren't much of a reader... Was it not you who wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Elkgunner, you must be one of the world's worst fishermen! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And let me know how you do catching Steelhead and Salmon on the Pahsimeroi this fall. That should be interesting fishing, as there is NOT a Salmon/Steelhead season on that fine stretch of habitat, because all the fry that leave there, 90+% of them get killed on their way downstream by the dams. And don't let Mr. Game Warden catch you...

And what about the other places I named? Don't you want to fish them, or are you happy fishing next to the highway?

With Respect to the wager, then if I land 4 Salmon in 4 days, you'll be making a contribution to IRU or WWP? Or are you now reconsidering your statements?

And if you are really satisfied with fishing within 3 miles of fish traps or hatchery outlet pipes, then I lose all respect for you as a Steelheader/Salmon fisherman. We have 100's of miles of suitable habitat, if we could just get the fish to the ocean. These fish have amazing will to migrate to the ocean and then return. Why don't you want more of them back? Old estimates of pre-dam times were 4 million fish in Idaho. Now, we are lucky to get 3 to Redfish, 1000 to Rapid River, same to South Fork.

I do not think we should get to know each fish by name. I would love to see a day where there are too many fish to name.

'Nuff said, I got fishin' to do...

 

[Leanwolf]

Well, E.G., there ya go again, not reading my/your posts. Notwithstanding your claim of my inability to read, I can at least, manage to reread my own post to ascertain that I DID NOT say I would be fishing for Salmon or Steelhead, on the Pahsimeroi, this Sept./Oct. (I've managed, admittedly with great difficulty, to read the I.F.&G. fishing regs, pages 7-55-56, and understand them.) I said I'd be "fishing." ALL fishing is not forbidden on the Pahsimeroi, in Sept./Oct.

I would have thought you'd be able to understand that that meant I'd be fishing according to the regulations, per season. Therefore, I won't need to watch out for a Game Warden. If I were to snag an I.F.&G. proscribed fish, you'd better believe that I'd throw it back. I don't violate the G&F laws. Do you?? Is that why you advised me to watch out for the Warden? 'Cause you have to watch over your shoulder when you're fishing and hunting????

As for knowing the rivers and streams as well as you, I've only been here about six years, so am still learning. I must say I certainly admire a person such as yourself, who has lived here long enough to know it all. Of course, I'm old enough to have learned long ago that the more I know, the more I know I'll never know. But I'm still trying.

Wagers. Now E.G., I've pulled some foolish stunts in my time, but my momma didn't raise a TOTAL fool, so I'm not foolish enough to accept ANY man's bet, when he makes all the rules and sets the parameters.

Frankly, it is of no concern to me, whether or not you can catch more Salmon, Steelhead, Trout, bullfrogs, alligators, or Great Blue Whales, than I can. I just go to have fun and put a fish or two in my frying pan or on my smoker.

Back to the original argument. I've made it clear here before in other posts, that I believe that solutions can be found to accomodate BOTH sides on the problems of the western lands, private and public use. I'm not of the "Bring it all down, man! Blow up the dams, man! Ban everything, man!" crowd.

Nor am I of that crowd of "Don't do anything, man! It's fine as it is." I'm well aware of many of the problems.

Solutions can be found, I believe, if people drop their hatred of each other's position, and try to reason together. Will that happen?? Probably not. I've found that the "enviro-extremists" have no intention of accomodating anything, other than their own agenda... no matter how long it takes.

Have a good time fishing this weekend. Hope you catch a bunch.

L.W.

 

[BuzzH]

Leanwolf, your last post acutally made some sense, the first couple...not much.

I have a couple questions for you though.

What "compromise" or "middle ground" is there with salmon and steelhead?

I mean lets get real. Every single wild run is on the Endangered Species list, both salmon and steelhead. You havent been able to keep a wild steelhead or salmon in the state of Idaho for 20+ years.

The salmon and steelhead fishermen of Idaho were promised, by the government, that the runs would not be reduced by dams....we all know that simply is a lie. The data proves that without any doubt, the fish just arent there. The habitat in Idaho is intact, in basically pretty good condition, but there arent fish available to use it.

I also dont believe anyone is that far in denial, that the number one problem, far and above any other, is the smolt getting killed going through dams. You can litterally dump millions of smolt into the rivers, produced millions of wild smolt in the river, but the bottom line is, if they cant reach the ocean, we're done.

What are the solutions?

Well, all I know is that there has been exhaustive efforts...barging, turbine screens, more hatcheries, pipelines, and the list goes on...to the tune of close to 2 billion spent on "recovery efforts" with many agencies involved, to increase populations.

They've all failed, and the fish continue to decline in Idaho and every run is still listed despite the efforts of all the agencies and an asspile of money. Many of the top salmon/steelhead experts have been saying all along that all these "techno fixes" would fail, sadly they were right on the money.

I dont believe, let me restate: I KNOW, that throwing more money at techno-fixes like those mentioned above, wont do anything to help salmon and steelhead numbers or get any runs off the list. I believe that, as much as I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. Look at the record: if you cant get it done with 2 billion, will another 2 billion do it?

Therefore, the only viable alternative that I can see, is to breach dams and allow smolt to get downstream.

Over 200 fisheries experts all agree, and the facts are flat out overwhelming to support dam breaching if we want to avoid a loss of wild runs of anadromous fish in Idaho, and avoid lawsuits in the hundreds of billions that the tribes will win if runs go extinct.

I would be the first person on board if we could find a way to get the runs back without breaching dams, but the facts and common sense tell me that there is no possible way that will ever happen.

 

[Leanwolf]

BuzzH, I can't find the words to tell you just how much I appreciate, no, have unbridled gratitude!, for your damnation-by-faint-praise post, wherein you stated you found virtually no common sense in my first two posts, but a bit in my third. You're probably unaware of this, but I literally spend all my waking hours, hoping assiduously for some tiny modicum of approval here, from one of the Bring-It-All-Down,-Man!-Gang. And now, glorioski, I've got some! I'm not sure I can stand the exhilaration!

Nevertheless, I must confess however, I couldn't find anything in your post that really approved of anything I wrote, as your solution is still to just blow up the dams. From someone I know pretty well, who is rather high up in the U.S. government bureaucracy -- far, far higher than you -- blowing up the dams to enhance the salmon/Steelhead population, is much more complex than you, and others, make it out to be.

There are Unintended Consequences which are NEVER mentioned by the Blow-Up-The-Dams-Organizations. I.e., what happens when the dams are blown and there are no more lakes, no more reservoirs, no more locks, no more irrigation uses, no more recreational facilities and uses (gotta protect those smolts, ya know!), etc.? What happens to the property values of the people who bought land-near-water in good faith, only to have their property decrease radically in value? What happens also to the tax base from those destroyed properties? What happens to the thousands of businessmen and businesswomen who have businesses which would be destroyed when the dams are blown? Afterall, not everyone has a guaranteed salary each month from Big Brother.

(And please, let's drop the euphemisms, i.e., "breach." It's "Blow up the dams." With these cute little euphemisms,I'm always reminded of how the extreme left politicians use the euphemistic phrase "Just some common sense gun control," when they actually mean "Total gun confiscation".)

Consequently, I well know that this discussion (argument?) is not going to be solved here, or anywhere else, until the enviro-greenie orgs get their way and blow up all the dams, ban the ranchers from grazing cattle and sheep on the public lands, ban logging, ban mining, and oil drilling, which, afterall, just makes common sense. Doesn't it?

Of course, I stand in awe of someone such as yourself, whose each-and-every word reeks of "common sense." I certainly don't know how to compete with that.

Well, off to watch the fireworks for Independence Day. Best of luck.

L.W.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-05-2003 12:56: Message edited by: Leanwolf ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Leanwolf, you sure are a bleeding heart arent you? Sound like a democrap "what are we going to do with all those people who lose jobs over the dam blow ups"

Where the hell were you when the dams eliminated 10,000 jobs for commercial fishermen, sport fishing industries, etc? I bet you and your bleeding heart were right there helping those people get right on their feet? NO? WTF, hypocrit. I guess the people operating the dams are more important?

As far as the loss of "irrigation" thats a joke too, and you know it. I dont consider 13 corporate farms drawing water from Ice Harbor to be much of a problem. In particular when all they'd have to do is extend pumps a ways to reach the precious irrigation water.

Oh, and the locks, you must have missed the part about the entire grain transportation system being the most heavily subsidized transport system in the U.S.

Lakes, I wasnt aware that taking the 4 dams out on the Snake RIVER would lose Idaho any lakes. Do you know the difference between a reservoir and lake? Apparently not.

But, hell, you know all this stuff too, so does your government beauracracy high-up-muckitymuck dude. Bet he works for good ol' Larry huh?

I'll get my way in the end, and really thats all I give a shit about..not for me, but for the anadromous fish.

Crooked politics, corrupt agencies, etc. will eventually lose out to the Endangered Species Act, science, the thought of paying 100's of billions to the tribes, taxpayers tired of being ripped off, etc. you can count on seeing some dams "blown up". You're even wrong about the dams being "blown up", but I guess thats typical of someone with all that "common
sense".

 

[Ithaca 37]

Lean, You'd be a great guy to be on the Board of Directors of some of the local sportsman's organizations. Especially the ones right in the thick of educating people about the issues. Your writing skills would be a tremendous help to their press releases and newsletters and you'd get lot's of great insider info, too, about the inner workings of many issues.

How'd you like to get to know some guys who understand all these wildlife issues inside and out? Just say the word and I'll set it up.

 

[Moosie]

So is this thread about fishing or Bison ?!?! CAN we now Fish for BISON !?!? COOL !!!

I'll be shooting a bison soon, I hear there is a 10'x10' pen in Arco that has a few Bulls I can "HARVEST". I'll be sure to post pictures too !!!!