Get the Cattle Out, Bring on the Bison

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

The problem with your thinking about breaching the 4 lower Snake dams is that this would be just a start of more dam breaching to come. You've all but admitted it right here on this site. So why don't you use figures and numbers of all the dams you'ld like to have breached right from the get go? Starts to make your perspective look a little more radical, doesn't it?

Paul

 

[ELKCHSR]

We can fish for buffalo!!!
That is way to cool...
Break out the monofilliment!!!
I am going to the foundry today and have a hook made to suit!!!

Great post again LW!!!

 

[Bullhound]

Moosie or Marland,

Just wondering why my posts here got nuked. Did I not agreee with the right guy or something?

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, you're wrong again.

I dont want to see all the dams on the Columbia breached. I've never said that, never eluded to that, not sure where you get your dillusional ideas. Paranoid or what?

The science, and the countless anadromous fish experts all say that breaching the 4 Snake river dams will get the anadromous fish off the ES list and ensure their long-term survival. It will also bring back hatchery returns to the numbers originally promised by the Corp of Engineers, NMFS, etc. It will revitalize many local economies in Idaho, save the taxpayers money, and the threat of large lawsuits by the tribes will go away. It makes sense.

Thats all I want, the runs to be in position for long-term survival and off the ES list. Theres a much better case to be made for leaving the Columbia River dams in place...economically and socially, than there is for breaching them.

You see, I'm not like you, I recognize the facts and understand the issue. I dont live in fear of reality.

 

[cjcj]

ok let`s blow up glen canyon dam and make page arizona disappear from the map! might as well take bonneville and the grand coolie too! can you say OUT GO THE LIGHT`S! how about envirowackoisim.

 

[BuzzH]

cjcj, talk about wacko, look in the mirror.

Grand Coulee thats a real gem in the history of anadromous fish loses. Wiped out the largest body sized run of Chinook Salmon in the lower 48 (they were called June hogs and weighed up to 90 pounds.) Very similar to the chinooks found in the Kenai River in AK.

Its too late for the june hogs, they're gone and we wont be fishing for them ever again, but it isnt too late for the salmon and steelhead that are left in Idaho.

You dont understand the issue, and that really shows.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzzard,

The issue is, is that cj would rather mess with you on the computer, than fish for june hogs, right cj?

Paul

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

1404 posts so far on this site. Looks like you like to play on the computer too. How do you get your computer to work? Plug it in to a salmons ass?

The dams you were hinting at breaching, in addition to the 4 lower Snake dams, were the dams in Hells Canyon, remember? Is being a lying weasel a requirement to be an enviro wacko?

 

[cjcj]

hey buzzboy i heard a rumor that the grand coulie supplied 4-5 milliom homes with power, could this be true ? the dam`s are here to stay get used to it and GET OVER IT!

 

[cjcj]

by the way i just bought WILD salmon at my local fry`s food store $199 lb. and they had plenty, and that was just one store.

 

[cjcj]

No paul i would really rather fish than mess with buzzboy, but it`s to hot [113] to do anything else.

 

[BbarC]

Back to buffalo. Got a real question, don'[t really know the answer but someone here might. Aren't buffalo in considerable numbers far more devastating to the streams and the range than cattle?? I realize that in the "olden days" there were millions and today there are thousands, but then they would devastate a range and then move on, highly polluting the streams, from the accounts I've read. They would be under somewhat somewhat limited range today too. They left hellacious wallows in the plains that are still there today and called playa lakes.Does anyone here have any REAL experience with raising buffalo today and what if any damage they do ???I've never been around any of the big parks where they have freeranging buffalo to see what the range looks like. Ol Bob

 

[1_pointer]

Bob- I doubt either cattle or bison would do too much damage in the original state at which the accounts of bison were documented. They could move to where there was food and not where the fence kept them. Yes, bison would 'devastate' and area and then move on, just like fire. Also, like fire they may not have returned to that area for years! As far as wallows and playa lakes, to me that rings of a chicken and egg question. I'd guess that the lakes were there first though.

FWIW, there is mounting evidence that the herds of millions of bison we hear about were probably and anomoly. That their numbers were not naturally that high, but we allowed to get that way from our diseases killing off most of the Amerindians.

FWIW2, many of the areas now being grazed did not evolve under much grazing.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-08-2003 15:45: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

cjcj and Paul,

You guys need to jump into reality...the anadromous fish issue is going to come down to the two things that count the most in the United States: Federal Law (ESA) and MONEY.

Both of which mean the dams on the Snake are history..."get used to it and get over it" because thats the reality of the U.S. system. Reality sucks for you two huh? But, its great for me! YEAH BABY YEAH, Buzz will win again.

cjcj you arent related to Helen Chenoweth by chance are you? She also said "salmon arent endangered I can buy them in the Grocery store"

Thats about the stupidest damn thing I ever heard...until now.

Maybe the ISSU clubs new bumper sticker should read, "Can Helen, and CJCJ, not salmon".

 

[BuzzH]

Bob, I'll tell you what I know about Bison from spending a few years on a couple ranches that had a bunch of them.

Bison move a lot more than cattle, dont come to water as much, and when they do water, they all come off the hill, get a drink and head back up the hill.

Unlike cattle that would just as soon park their asses in the nearest riparian zone and stay there until they die.

According to my friend Dave Dixon who manages one of the ranches I worked on he likes them better than cattle for the following reasons:

1. They defend themselves and their young from predators much better.

2. They rarely drink water in the winter, they eat snow instead and prefer that over open water.

3. They dont require any help calving, unlike cattle.

4. You dont need nearly the cross fencing and you dont have to keep chasing them up the hill to new grass.

5. They require less supplemental feeding in the winter, they move a lot of snow out of the way.

Some things Dave didnt like:

1. Occassionally one will decide he/she needs to get out and roam several miles, but apparently thats taken care of easily by filling the freezer. Most stay home, and those that dont, live short lives.

2. They dont like being pushed or herded, but luckily they usually dont have to be and Dave found that they follow a feed truck more readily than they take to being pushed.

3. They can get mean with age.

4. They are way faster and more agile than cattle and also way faster than people....

I think they're overall easier on a given piece of ground, in particular much, much easier on riparian areas, than cattle.

Dave liked them because they didnt require nearly as much babysitting as cattle.

 

[Moosie]

BULLHOUND, I'm not aware of any nuking here.. ARE you sure you hit "REPLY" ? We're a free speach place. If I was to nuke things it would be some of these people that don't know anything about whats good for the environment

 

[cjcj]

hey buzzy! you can`t read very well can you? show me where i said salmon wern`t endangerd. if you going to make a feeble attempt at blasting me at least get your fact`s straight, and no i never heard of your girl helen, i just stated some fact`s that you don`t like to hear! $199. lb. all that you wanted to buy. and by the way they taste great.

 

[BbarC]

Buzz, thanks for the input and info on buffalo..I've raised lotsa different animals, but never one of those critters AND Connie [ my pardner] says I'm not going to have any of them. Ol Bob

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-09-2003 10:10: Message edited by: BbarC ]</font>

 

[Bullhound]

Moosie,


I'd made a couple comments on the Salmon being in both the Crooked River and the American. Don't know what happened but no big deal. I was just wondering if I pissed off the wrong guy or something.

 

[Lostagain]

Just as with anything.... you need to weigh the good vs the bad and decide which is best for your own particular situtation. NO one thing is best for every one.
For anyone to even think that one thing is best for every situtation is just crazy and is not willing to even discuss someone else's ideas.