FWP lies about Corner Crossing

[Elky Welky]

Never gonna make it out if commity. Hoping some over zealous County Attorney tries to push their luck against a legit corner crossing and gets the WY treatment. Last MT county attorney to have a chance bowed out as soon as the case started to get some attention. Smart move, he's now our Chief Justice.
With our current legislature I see much higher probability of the negative equivalent being introduced, passed, then signed into law. How do you legal experts see a state law codifiying corner cross as trespass holding up as precedent in a 9th Circuit challenge (involving federal land)? The way I see it all playing out is 9th eventually decides with the 8th but MT codifies State Trust land as separate from the Fed ruling.
And all the "Cattlmen" say Amen....

It was the AG's call, not Cory Swanson's, to drop the Sangray case. Although our AG also has not-so-subtle political ambitions. I've met a handful of county attorneys that either don't care (they have too many drugs, homicides, and driving while suspended cases to prosecute), or don't want the heat. On the flipside, FWP just issued a new directive to their law enforcement to start citing people, so some unlucky CA might not have a choice.

I think you are very right to be concerned about State lands, Colorado--which is in the 10th--exempted state lands from CC. But though I think there are many legislators that would love to block public access via corners, they also know that would land them in hot water with their constituents to bring a bill. They don't need to make it expressly illegal and invite a 9th circuit legal challenge so long as they can keep prosecuting under our current hunting without permission and trespass statutes. I think they will take the easy way out, which is simply trying to kill this bill and taking no further action.

 

[TOGIE]

I think you are very right to be concerned about State lands, Colorado--which is in the 10th--exempted state lands from CC.

we don't have a right to be on them regardless...

 

[Nunjagottam]

we don't have a right to be on them regardless...

Expand?

 

[WildWill]

Expand?

In Colorado unlike some other western states, state land isn't open to the public. There are exceptions like cpw leasing some and allowing access for instance. But just because it's "public" land dosen't necessarily mean it's open to the public.

 

[TOGIE]

Expand?

like @WildWill said, by default and per statute, state trust lands in colorado are not open to public access.

CPW does put lots of dollars towards leasing strategic STL properties that provide great hunting/fishing access. money well spent IMO.

but, colorado did not maliciously exclude state lands from CC. in fact, i don't even know if it's fair to say they excluded them in any capacity, they just simply aren't included/not even a part of the conversation because they're not public land. they're neither here nor there.

whether your cross a corner on to STL land or walk on it through a gate on the side of the road, you would be trespassing either way.

 

[Nunjagottam]

like @WildWill said, by default and per statute, state trust lands in colorado are not open to public access.

CPW does put lots of dollars towards leasing strategic STL properties that provide great hunting/fishing access. money well spent IMO.

but, colorado did not maliciously exclude state lands from CC. in fact, i don't even know if it's fair to say they excluded them in any capacity, they just simply aren't included/not even a part of the conversation because they're not public land. they're neither here nor there.

whether your cross a corner on to STL land or walk on it through a gate on the side of the road, you would be trespassing either way.

Cool thanks, MT has some state lands that "aren't accessible" but I've never heard of anyone getting tickets. We used to to have the separate state lands permit which was required in order to be on state ground, but it has since been bundled in with the conservation licence. Pretty much everyone i know considers state land to be synonyms with public land except, of course, the ranchers of the UPOM persuasion.
I was just in a conversation with an outfitters who was bemoaning "that corner cross ruling" and how the public is running roughshod over some checkerboard state ground on the ranch he leases. Personally I think thats awesome, but I'm not gonna be out there testing the waters until something is settled black and white.

 

[sclancy27]

That was a cluster.

Krayton Kerns (R-Billings) was the co-sponsor. He told all of us hunting groups we had better show up. We did, in big numbers. Then in committee, he voted against his own bill, which was the deciding vote to make sure it did not leave the committe.

I had never heard of someone voting against their own bill. And I've never heard of it since then. The Republican leadership took him to the woodshed for even co-sponsoring the bill, forcing him to take the humiliating route of voting against his own bill in front of everyone.

Ha, I know Krayton from growing up around Laurel.

 

[Nunyacreek]

“FWP just issued a new directive to their law enforcement to start citing people”

Any more information or evidence of this? I don’t doubt it I just wondered where the info came from.

 

[Rack Daniels]

“FWP just issued a new directive to their law enforcement to start citing people”

Any more information or evidence of this? I don’t doubt it I just wondered where the info came from.

I was also hoping you’d elaborate @Elky Welky

You mean citing for CC? Wouldn’t that ultimately expedite the final decision making process??

 

[Straight Arrow]

Ha, I know Krayton from growing up around Laurel.

And ????

 

[rogerthat]

“FWP just issued a new directive to their law enforcement to start citing people”

Any more information or evidence of this? I don’t doubt it I just wondered where the info came from.

I second this request @Elky Welky . Happy to call my region wardens captain to verify too

 

[cgasner1]

I was also hoping you’d elaborate @Elky Welky

You mean citing for CC? Wouldn’t that ultimately expedite the final decision making process??

Which could go either way depending on who decides to cross what corner.

 

[Rack Daniels]

Which could go either way depending on who decides to cross what corner.

What is an example of a poor corner to cross, in terms of one piece of accessible public to one landlocked piece?

Edited to add: assuming there is a survey marker or a fence or something else. Let’s hope some knucklehead doesn’t cross in a wide open field and claim they made their best attempt at finding the corner

 

[cgasner1]

What is an example of a poor corner to cross, in terms of one piece of accessible public to one landlocked piece?

Edited to add: assuming there is a survey marker or a fence or something else. Let’s hope some knucklehead doesn’t cross in a wide open field and claim they made their best attempt at finding the corner

You answered your own question

 

[Nunjagottam]

Regardless, the only guy out anythingnwould be the "culprit". It wouldn't change anything. Crossing at a survey marker provides solid argument for the case to proceed and should attract the advocacy groups' attention and resources. Hopefully....
I do find it odd that a rancher or his employees can go onto my place to retrieve his weed spreading shit factories without consequence but a guy walking and making his best effort to cross an unmarked corner is treated like he's there to rob the place.

 

[rogerthat]

FWP director reiterates corner crossing is illegal in Montana — Daily Montanan

Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Director Christy Clark wants Montanans to know that corner crossing remains illegal in Montana.

apple.news

 

[sclancy27]

FWP director reiterates corner crossing is illegal in Montana — Daily Montanan

Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Director Christy Clark wants Montanans to know that corner crossing remains illegal in Montana.

apple.news

So unlawful basically means there is no statute that the practice violated but we think it's bad.....?

 

[Elky Welky]

FWP director reiterates corner crossing is illegal in Montana — Daily Montanan

Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Director Christy Clark wants Montanans to know that corner crossing remains illegal in Montana.

apple.news

"Corner crossings have always been unlawful in Montana" from Director Clark is straight up gaslighting us. Does she really think we are this stupid or we can't read?

They have not "always been unlawful." Corner crossing is neither lawful nor unlawful, illegal nor illegal. Multiple memos from her own department refute this assertion dating back to the 1990s. Dustin Temple made this position up a few years ago and now they are saying this is how it has always been.

It's gaslighting and complete BS. Montanans deserve better.

When pressed at the EQC meeting, it sounds like Dir. Clark said this came from our Lieutenant Gov., who is an anti-public access advocate and failed Montana Supreme Court candidate (she is known to not be a fan of our stream access law as well). Why follow the law when you can just make it up?

 

[rogerthat]

What’s a good corner crossing defense number to budget for? That article kind of makes me want to call that obvious bluff. Guess it’s the poker player in me coming out.

 

[Elky Welky]

What’s a good corner crossing defense number to budget for? That article kind of makes me want to call that obvious bluff. Guess it’s the poker player in me coming out.

I know a couple of attorneys that might take it for free. It's a misdemeanor charge, so a criminal defense attorney would probably only charge a few grand to defend it. A favorable jury verdict wouldn't change the law on it though.

I've said this elsewhere, but I agree, they are likely bluffing. I think they would rather try and convince people that it is illegal so they don't do it. But I think they don't actually want to prosecute anyone and lose. This article doesn't say it, but we (MWF, BHA) met with their attorneys and law enforcement a few months back and learned that they didn't file a single case last year.

I will say I think Dir. Clark is in over her head on this one. Calling it "corner crossings" and not corner crossing shows that she isn't really educated on the issue, and from those I know that were at the EQC meeting, she seemed to be conflating CC with trespass that isn't at perfect corners. I think she is simply taking her talking points from those above her who have worse intentions.