Endangered Grizzly Bear Photo Thread

Greenhorn said:
If you're gonna be that old, pay that much, and go that far, by God you might as well do something really ridiculously embarrassing.

Make sure you get your money's worth.
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Guess I can only reply to one of you guys that don't like my comments.

I understand the conservation of the UL's. I'm all about keeping this hunt around for everyone. But here's the deal. Dude shot a legal sheep. Don't be mad at that guy or others that shoot a LEGAL sheep. It's like telling a deer hunter to only shoot 4X4's and not shoot the spike that is legal to shoot. Sure others hold out for 4X4's and others shoot spikes. it is different for everyone.

If you don't like young sheep shot then the rules need to be changed. Make it a 6 year old or older, make it a 15 or 20 year wait, or just make it once in a lifetime. There are many rules I don't agree with but if someone follows the rules then you shouldn't be mad at them. Change the rules.

I don't shoot small 320" bulls either. I don't get mad at guys when they decide to shoot really small 320" bulls. It is their choice. Kind of sad they don't let them grow up.

The money is an issue to many other hunters. The money isn't an issue for me. I plan on buying all the hunts that @ENJONAS has in his list....except the Tiburan hunt. I've got a desert tag in AZ right now and don't really have the urge to shoot a ram in Mexico. Would be open to buying a rocky tag too if I don't get it done in the UL's.
 
I've seen a few mention the long term effects for shooting young rams. I have a hard time believing that killing 1-2 rams a year, regardless of age has any effect on the herd health for the UL or any unit, and if it does, MT FWP needs to revaluate their management plans. I just looked at harvest stats and ages of rams killed in the ULs, There are oodles of 5 and 6oy rams killed in those units, even a bunch of 4 yos. Its "legal ram" to maximize opportunity. How many legal rams are available in any of those units on a given year? Its a small fraction of the total.

IMO, there is a greater argument that the older rams are more valuable, because they have more "knowledge" to pass on to the younger rams. Spread out the harvest across age class.

I haven't looked at MT regs in a while, but aren't almost all of Montana's sheep tags "either sex?" FWP must be on to something with the quota vs population vs any sheep being dead doesn't really matter.

We have a few any ram units here right next to "FC" units. The only difference in herd health is the the average age of harvest is higher in the FC units, marginally. Both have quotas, and are similar in terrain, weather patterns, etc. There are still plenty of big, old rams to kill in the any ram units. What effects herd health is weather.

EYJONAS! said:
If people start whacking rams barely legal/ young, not checking them in correctly with the deadline and so on and so forth you can pretty well bet this opportunity with disappear. Look what happened to the Spanish Peak unit....
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What did you hear happen in the Spanish Peak unit? I remember some serious predation one winter around 2000-2001, where about 30-40 sheep were killed by a mountain lion. A good friend of mine worked with FWP and killed the lion(s). It was closed soon after as the herd bounced back over a half dozen years. It didn't have anything to do with harvest of young rams. Most rams killed there were 6-8+. The quota was sometimes not even filled, as the season was only 6 days long over Labor day week. Tough, hot hunting conditions usually.
 
BAKPAKR said:
Let’s say you put a great unlimited ram to bed on September 24 - I am talking a ram like @MTGomer shot. If he remains anywhere near where you saw him at dark, you will have yourself a ram the next morning. That night, you message your buddy, via inReach, that tomorrow is the day. He responds and says that the quota has been met and that season closes a half hour after sunset on September 25.

When you get up on September 25, do you go after the ram or do you pack up camp and head to the truck?
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The season is still open. Why would you not go after the ram?

If you wouldn't go after the ram on the 25th then you shouldn't have been hunting the 24th either since the quota was already full by the 24th.
 
recurveman said:
Guess I can only reply to one of you guys that don't like my comments.

I understand the conservation of the UL's. I'm all about keeping this hunt around for everyone. But here's the deal. Dude shot a legal sheep. Don't be mad at that guy or others that shoot a LEGAL sheep. It's like telling a deer hunter to only shoot 4X4's and not shoot the spike that is legal to shoot. Sure others hold out for 4X4's and others shoot spikes. it is different for everyone.

If you don't like young sheep shot then the rules need to be changed. Make it a 6 year old or older, make it a 15 or 20 year wait, or just make it once in a lifetime. There are many rules I don't agree with but if someone follows the rules then you shouldn't be mad at them. Change the rules.

I don't shoot small 320" bulls either. I don't get mad at guys when they decide to shoot really small 320" bulls. It is their choice. Kind of sad they don't let them grow up.

The money is an issue to many other hunters. The money isn't an issue for me. I plan on buying all the hunts that @ENJONAS has in his list....except the Tiburan hunt. I've got a desert tag in AZ right now and don't really have the urge to shoot a ram in Mexico. Would be open to buying a rocky tag too if I don't get it done in the UL's.
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I would love to shoot a "small" 320 bull.
 
I am glad to hear the ram was in fact legal. I certainly don't have the confidence to say if I was in the field.

I also have a ram tag here in NV this year. Nevada is an "any ram" state for all ram hunts, so judging one has to do with me being satisfied with what I may take, not having to worry about if it is legal or not.

There used to be a lot of different restrictions until about 25 years ago when it changed to any ram. There were a lot of units that couldn't produce to that minimum for various reasons. It seems to be doing fine like it is now

There are quite a few 2 to 5 year old rams taken in the state every year. The goal for the state is an average of 6 years old, so they understand younger rams will be harvested.

I am not sure how two rams of any age is going to have an impact on the herd health in those unlimited units.

It certainly is an accomplishment. Good job to the hunter.
 
BAKPAKR said:
Let’s say you put a great unlimited ram to bed on September 24 - I am talking a ram like @MTGomer shot. If he remains anywhere near where you saw him at dark, you will have yourself a ram the next morning. That night, you message your buddy, via inReach, that tomorrow is the day. He responds and says that the quota has been met and that season closes a half hour after sunset on September 25.

When you get up on September 25, do you go after the ram or do you pack up camp and head to the truck?
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Last year, when I heard the quota was filled in 501, I packed up and headed down. I wasn't in your stories exact shoes but I was on rams. It seems funny to me guys are not willing to harvest a legal young ram but are willing to keep harvesting sheep after the quota has been met.

Would I like to see more, larger, older rams in the ULs? Of course. But I still maintain any ram in the ULs is a trophy, simply by the amount of work it represents.
Any major infractions are going to reflect badly on the units. Whether thats guys killing sub legals or not reporting in time.
And I feel like if we keep harvesting rams after the quota has been filled that reflects badly as well.
 
EYJONAS! said:
The story I heard was that one season there was a exceptionally large harvest of rams from hunters combined with the predation. I guess I could be mistaken to... if I am then what changed with the fwp to make Spanish and the Hillguard tags draw vs. Unlimited opportunities?

They closed the 303 unit after the pneumonia outbreak in 2014 or 15 then reopened it in 17? Why didn't that change to a draw unit.
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Where the Hillguards ever UL, I don't remember them being so. I remember when it opened when I was about 10-12, and one of my grampas friends shot a giant ram there. Maybe it was UL before then, I'm not sure. The sheep mostly hang out near the highway later in the year. If I'm not mistaken its the only unit that closes early, for what ever reason.

My guess on the Spanish Peaks didn't go back to UL status because how easy access is today vs. when it originally was designated as such. Logging up Jack Creek/Moonlight and the explosion of Big Sky changed that entire area and access. IMO its really not the same type hunt as the others.

Why not make 303 a draw? No clue, other than it would just be a camping trip for most who draw. They'd have to give out 100 tags to kill 2 sheep a year. :D A quota is the way to manage it. They could have a lot of units in MT the same way, make the season shorter/earlier, legal ram only, etc. MT could have a lot more opportunity to hunt sheep if they'd move away from guaranteeing success if you draw a tag.
 
There is no new access to sheep now in spanish peaks vs as when it was unlimited. It closed entirely for a decade. Hunters, lions, cell service and disease are things I've heard were all contributing factors. They are killing about as many rams now as they did back in the UL days, with some years being exceptions. In 1992 - 22 rams were taken. I think the quota of 7 is too high for there, but that's just my opinion. It's a 100% cake walk hunt, in November. 7 might be okay if they closed it on Halloween like they do 302 (Hilgards)- which has been unlimited also.
 
mtnkid85 said:
And I feel like if we keep harvesting rams after the quota has been filled that reflects badly as well.
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There's no doubt that if the 2 rams were indeed checked in on time it probably would've saved a couple. But, there was also a couple demographic of sheep heards that the rams were indeed harvested from.

I would like to know what the involvement of the outfitter that packed em out to.

I've had this said to me by the biologists themselves the quotas are set in a way to account for such instances, they don't happen every year thank God but they are conservative for that exact reason.
 
Man, the crew in here is salty as normal,
Congrats to that dude in 500...not my cup of tea. But, I was 7 years in before I got to shoot at one, passed on a few that were just too young...but also saw rams that we could age at 10.5 that was not 3/4...no lies. I have pics of him, and I would not pull the trigger.
As for killing young ones...relax, there are plenty of mature rams for you to find. I only got 5 days in this year trying to help my buddy find one. Had to come out for a funeral. Smoke was awful, did see three rams. One good legal one the day before season opened, on another mountain. Then, watched 3 other hunters camp on it. No shots heard opening morning on it.
 
rustneversleeps said:
It's one thing to shoot dinks and keep that to yourself...it's another thing to shoot dinks and then post it on public hunting forums looking for a pat on the back.
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This- It just feels like the hunter put a higher price on the notoriety of taking a UL sheep more than anything else. The sentiment on this forum is similar to the same "bitterness" shown to the dude with the Montana Governor Moose Tag earlier this year who seemed to be looking for handouts, real or perceived, and not doing the tag "justice". I think there's a lot of us on this forum that put a higher price on other aspects of the hunt than simply the harvest, so I think shooting a borderline ram then thumping your chest is a stark contrast to many of the individuals that post in the UL thread or on HT in general. Is legal, legal? Yes. Am I more satisfied with hearing of the archery 501 ram, or seeing someone who has put years into the ULs walk away with a great ram, like a few of these HT members? Also yes.

"Singed every unlimited sheep hunter. :D"

Are there some chest thumpers on here? Sure are. Are there some guys on here who worked their asses off and have provided invaluable information to FWP biologists on the unit, creating more opportunities for others (HD 521 Goat, to name just one example), sure are. Are there some people who quietly follow this forum, put their time in, and take a ram, never to be seen on this forum? There's those too. And I would say the majority of the people I've met from the Unlimited Sheep hunts fall into the latter categories. Blue Collar guys who are passionate about wild sheep and passionate about the Beartooths, and would lend you a hand if they came across you with car problems on the Boulder Road. Then there are the guys who just have a different value system that seem to be in it for themselves only, and I think that perception is what fuels any of the "bitterness" seen in this thread.
 
Would the bitterness still be there had the successful archery hunt shot the ram that the guy on rokslide shot? Since the accomplishment not been done since the 70’s if I read correctly?
 
WgGp4MYl.jpg


I've posted this picture before, but I think that it is relevant to the current discussion. I believe he would have been legal the year before I shot him but I passed on a 20 yard standing broadside shot at him. I went back and shot him the next year. I think that he was the last unlimited ram to come out of the Hilgard unit.

He is also my smallest unlimited ram, but at 10 1/2 years he is my oldest. When I checked him in with FWP another hunter brought in a 4 1/2 year old ram from another Montana unit that made Boone & Crockett. Different areas and bloodlines of sheep produce different size horns.

Since FWP made the Hilgard unit a draw unit they have introduced new blood to the heard and there are some larger rams in there now.

IMO just about any legal ram taken from an unlimited unit is a hard earned trophy, especially if you get him in a DIY solo hunt,
 
sacountry said:
Funny story....a buddy went fishing on the Mo' this last weekend. He took my drift boat which as you can see from my profile pic, once carried a ram's head about 10 months ago. While camped at a campground north of Craig, all these rams show up. One of these rams proceeds to lick my drift boat (no pics unfortunately). What was that ram thinking? Could there have been some scent left in the bow of the boat? Maybe? Say it with me, @EYJONAS! .....only the ram knows.
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Apple eaters!
 
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