It’s always fun to blame predators, but if the problem was low lamb recruitment it probably wasn’t a predator issue.
Endangered Grizzly Bear Photo Thread
- Thread starter BigHornRam
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BigHornRam
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This case it was, and specifically one Lion. Ask Kurt Alt, he was the biologist. Lambs started disappearing in the winter. The lion was removed and the herd recovered.
buffybr
Well-known member
Not sheep, but one MT FWP biologist spent a good part of his career studying the mule deer in the Bridger Mountains NE of Bozeman. One of his findings was that in the first 6 months after they were born, 45% of the mule deer fawns were killed by coyotes.
Also, I've known Kurt Alt for many years, and he told me once that lions have been a big threat to the Spanish Peaks sheep for many years.
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If a single lion is suppressing a sheep herd, it's not a viable population. It can certainly happen with transplant populations that are low in numbers and naïve to to the new habitat, and NM desert sheep herds are a great case study for such situations. We helped to remove offending lions to let those populations grow in NM, but once they were larger and established, they could handle the predation. The point is that the single lion that was removed was an indicator that the herd had other problems. The Spanish Peaks herd was probably suffering from what ails many wild sheep herd around the west. They are small, isolated populations that are more impacted by stochastic events such as as a bad winter, a pathogen spillover, or a single lion that acquires a taste for mutton.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
It's a native herd but winter range is limited. The Hilgard herd had an all herd die off around the same time ( little before) and not sure if they ever concluded why. This was an unusual sitution for sure. Most of Western Montana's transplant sheep herds are so darn tame, it's a wonder there isn't more depredation IMO. No science to back it up, but good thing wolves are not fond of mutton around here.
BigHornRam
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At any rate long live the beartooth bighorns. Those tough bastards can survive and thrive in that predator infested rock and ice and hopefully so will the unlimited hunts.
shines@times
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Interesting information. I once found Mountain lion tracks, many of them, way up above timber line in the rocks of the headwaters of a river that drains the eastern slope of Washington's Cascade Range. I can't say for sure that the animals were stalking Mountain goats because I did not come across any kills; but it sure looked like that's what they were up to judging by the sign.
I'm not a hound hunter, nor have I ever had a desire to shoot a treed cat--did get a chuckle out of the "Police Story" scene though--but I always thought I'd like to try a "spot and stalk" hunt for cougar in such circumstances as I found. Unfortunately, that was way back in either the late 1970's or early 1980's and I had way too much on my plate at the time to work such a speculative hunt into my schedule. I did take a decent billy above timberline in that same basin (1982, I think--would have to find my slides to verify year by the processing date).
Fall spot-and-stalk hunting for Black bear in that same basin is still on my bucket list. While packing out the goat, a friend and I stumbled upon some sign that alerted me in to a specific feeding activity of the bears that would occur in early October most years. Combined with snow, it offers a fine opportunity. Though I misjudged the range and shot over the bear's back, my theory proved out a year or two later when I went in specifically to hunt bear. I still hope to repeat the hunt on my own, as I took a long shot on the one I missed because my hunting partner had split off from my location. I didn't know where he was, if he would cross the open meadow or call out to locate my position, and I feared he would spook the bear.
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LopeHunter
Well-known member
Glad you mentioned the NM case. I think they had that cougar collared then realized the movement aligned with kills. Was a killing machine.
I find it interesting that certain groups of people always deflect predator issues to something else. I know nothing about this situation but sounds like others on here do know a lot. Why is it so hard to acknowledge that predators eat stuff and sometimes in large numbers? That's why we call them predators. They are not always the problem but sometimes they are THE problem. It baffles me how some don't ever want to acknowledge that fact no matter how obvious. Just an observation that I see(most often with wolves) but there is predator denial about all predators these days. Back on topic-dont attempt the unlimiteds without a proper gear. I pointed out already the minimal requirements of instant coffee,beer and a bota bag( see previous trailhead picture for reference). They still sell bota bags at walmart according to 1 member on here. Good luck to everyone going this year
Did you bother reading my follow-up post, or no?
yes-Not directed at you or your comment specifically, just in general, when someone speaks to a predation problem others automatically deflect to habitat or some other issue. Seemed like your post was doing that by saying there had to be bigger problems when well informed people specifically attributed the immediate issue to a lion. Lots of issues affect big game but sometimes the predator is THE problem. I read with your follow up post that you have dealt with lion predation issues and I can see your bigger picture. With that said even in NM the lions were THE immediate problem. If you didn't remove that problem they would not have made it. Sometimes we have to fix the problem staring us in the face before we move on to longer term issues with herds. Again, I can see your point with the bigger picture in your follow up post. Just an observation from many threads. If we don't fix the predator problem none of the other issues will matter because we wont have sustainable populations. Many times the predator is NOT the problem so I get that too. Sometimes they ARE. I might have misunderstood where you were coming from? No problems I need to go home and find my bota bag-unlimited 2022 here I come!
recurveman
Well-known member
best and lightest you can get.
recurveman
Well-known member
I personally think 15's are a must and a spotter. I bring the BTX with the 65 objective. It does give up a bit of light gathering. I guess I could use a bigger spotting scope but I will take my weight penalty with the BTX's over the 85mm objective. Everything has pluses and minuses. You just have to be comfortable with both.
FYI - you will probably use your sleep system quite a bit too. Make sure that works like a pro. Boots are another serious consideration.
FYI - you will probably use your sleep system quite a bit too. Make sure that works like a pro. Boots are another serious consideration.
Lambchoppa
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- Jul 12, 2021
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Thanks for all the input guys. I almost always run my 12x’s on a tripod. I have used 15x’s before but I can’t seem to get away from the 12x. My buddy will be the one carry the spotter (maybe I should just buy the 115 swaro 
).
I know someone brought up boots and sleep system and those are both rock solid for me. Boots are one of the most important pieces of gear and often the most overlooked.
).I know someone brought up boots and sleep system and those are both rock solid for me. Boots are one of the most important pieces of gear and often the most overlooked.
recurveman
Well-known member
Just bought the 115mm objective yesterday. Should be here in a few weeks. I'm for sure not dragging that up the hill but hey I'm going to use it on my AZ desert sheep hunt this year.
thebestusernamesaretaken
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- Feb 19, 2021
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Didn't they just outlaw trail cams in AZ?
Not until next year.
recurveman
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The trail cam pics were from 2019. Actually the pics came from an AZ game and fish camera too.
shines@times
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Right now, they sure are cute!
520 Road Sow
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It's pretty easy to start another thread on some of these topics.
