Elk vs. Wolves

[Hunting Wife]

I must admit that I am not an advocate of wolf reintroduction. BWT being said, I am a little in the dark with my feelings after reading some post presented. I realize that posts giving favorable information concerning wolves, and supplied from organizations or departments who are pro wolf, can be influenced by bias and can be suspect. But that can also be stated for those who are against the wolf issue. For myself, I just can not understand the connection some claim that wolf populations have increased elk numbers.......just how is that explained ? Is that bias which is determining the figures, or are there proven reasons for this ? Several posters here have given favorable opinions of wolves in elk habitat, am I missing something here and being too closed minded in this matter ?

To help explain your question about wolves and increasing elk numbers, you have to look at it from a different angle. Wolves didn’t cause elk populations to increase. Correlation is not causation...just because two things happened at the same time doesn’t mean one necessarily caused the other. (That is equally true for elk declines and wolves too BTW). There are many other variables at the same time that are also influencing elk populations. Habitat quality, weather, state elk management, land use patterns, conservation efforts are all working on that elk population at the same time the wolves are. If most of those variables are favorable, there’s no reason the population shouldn’t grow even with concurrent predation. Ungulates (and all prey species) did evolve with heavy predation pressure, after all.

Its an oversimplified explanation, but if you are seeing wolves actually having significant impacts on an elk population, I would argue that likely means something else is out of whack, and you’ve got a bigger problem than wolves. But wolves tend to be the scapegoat because it’s easy and people like to have a bad guy.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Its an oversimplified explanation, but if you are seeing wolves actually having significant impacts on an elk population, I would argue that likely means something else is out of whack, and you’ve got a bigger problem than wolves.

Excellent synopsis, and a case in point would be the Lolo zone in Idaho. It's always held up as the poster child by anti-wolf groups as ground zero for the apocalypse.

Do wolves affect elk numbers in the Lolo? Sure.
Is the habitat anywhere near what it could or should be? No.
Have there been significant winter kill events in the last 25 years? Absolutely.

Not only is habitat in long term decline, but at least one of the winterkill events was likely severe enough to potentially alter long term migrational patterns. It's a complex issue, and one that isn't going to be fixed with a war on wolves. A hard look at data shows the population starting its crash well before wolves were around. The lack of a rebound is most likely a combination of continued habitat decline and predation.

 

[Hydrophilic]

BH999 - I did not mean to imply the arrival of wolves caused an increased elk population in my unit, or the other Oregon units I was referencing. The wolves simply did not stop population growth from happening in certain units. The population growth is more impacted by habitat, antlerless tags, and management objectives. The yellowstone decline was sharper than expected because of a liberal anterless harvest outside the park, coinciding with wolves inside the park. Wolves tend to favor cows of lower reproductive value, calves, or injured animals. There are certainly units where wolves have hammered the elk but to generalize those circumstances onto every unit and launch a personal vendetta against wolves in the name of elk and better hunting does not bode well for hunters as a user group going forward. Especially with increased interest in federal land (managed for multi use) by other user groups who are interested in more than elk and deer. Science driven wolf management is key. Just my thoughts.

 

[Bowhunter999]

@HuntingWife, JLS, Hydrophilic....I thank you for your attempts to make me a ‘true’ wolf reintroduction fan, lol ! Some of the explanations are a little foggy to my already foggy thoughts on this topic, but I can at least see another side of not being a total wolf critic. Being a elk hunter and not a wolf ‘hunter’, my loyalties naturally went in favor of the ‘eaten’ and not the ‘eater’ ! And even more thanks for being civil with your explanations !

 

[Hunting Wife]

@HuntingWife, JLS, Hydrophilic....I thank you for your attempts to make me a ‘true’ wolf reintroduction fan, lol ! Some of the explanations are a little foggy to my already foggy thoughts on this topic, but I can at least see another side of not being a total wolf critic. Being a elk hunter and not a wolf ‘hunter’, my loyalties naturally went in favor of the ‘eaten’ and not the ‘eater’ ! And even more thanks for being civil with your explanations !

Oh, we’re going to brainwash you one way or another

Truly, its not a matter of converting you. I am no fan of the Colorado reintroduction business myself, for several reasons. But I think educated hunters who understand how the biology works are much better advocates in the long run and can contribute more meaningfully to natural resource management discussions.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I thank you for your attempts to make me a ‘true’ wolf reintroduction fan, lol !

I'm not necessarily a "fan" myself. Colorado is playing politics instead of science IMO, and no one really benefits from that.

When it comes to ranking my top three concerns for the future of elk hunting, I'm not sure wolves would make the list. YMMV.

 

[tillicant]

Back here in WI, not just the small elk herd & deer predation. Winter kill and management has natural food sources diminished. When wolves were re-introduced or let back in, there were (minimum) goals. Between State & Federal there are so many different "goals", its hard to follow. Minimum goal, Federal delisting goal, but maybe I missed it, don't see a Maximum goal.
Wisconsin has a high density of human population in wolf territory and in the northern areas they turn to domestic feed. The Federal delisting goal was surpassed nearly 20 years ago. We had a wolf hunting season,2014, short delisting. The anti's put us back on the list.
We were delisted Jan. 4th, but I believe there are already a couple lawsuits to stop.
Don't mind the wolves and don't really hunt that area but I want our elk herd to thrive, not just survive.

 

[Panda Bear]

Truly, its not a matter of converting you. I am no fan of the Colorado reintroduction business myself, for several reasons. But I think educated hunters who understand how the biology works are much better advocates in the long run and can contribute more meaningfully to natural resource management discussions.

EXACTLY !

 

[stuckinthecitylife]

Make no mistake, Wolves are a tool, a weapon, used in a war against not only the rural west as a whole, but also the outdoors-man, hunter, conservationist, rancher etc.

In Idaho it reached it's worst in '08-'10. Ranching in the high desert of Idaho, at the base of mountain country, we experienced this warfare first hand. In a similar fashion to how Colorado, Oregon, Washington and other states are starting to figure out, and will undoubtedly feel the effects of in the coming few years.

In this war, there is no rule of engagement. You better be prepared to defend life, and property against the enemy.

During the aforementioned years, we carried, openly, everywhere we went. On multiple occasion that carry was necessary to defend ourselves, and our property. From Animals, yes, form people? Yes also.

I personally spent hundreds of nights keeping guard to protect our livestock. I personally worked along side Government employed hunters and trappers to control the immediate problem out hand.

The enemy at present, in Idaho, is quite suppressed in comparison. However the enemy is also much wiser. Yes, Elk's response is very different now for those reasons. Patterns, cycles, ranges, domineer around people (and other animals) all of the above. Yes, and yes.

There is no such thing as poaching a Wolf. Keep that in mind people of Colorado.

Over and out -
Joseph

 

[ricknmontana]

There here, now we have to deal with them.

Good luck......lol

 

[mtmuley]

Make no mistake, Wolves are a tool, a weapon, used in a war against not only the rural west as a whole, but also the outdoors-man, hunter, conservationist, rancher etc.

In Idaho it reached it's worst in '08-'10. Ranching in the high desert of Idaho, at the base of mountain country, we experienced this warfare first hand. In a similar fashion to how Colorado, Oregon, Washington and other states are starting to figure out, and will undoubtedly feel the effects of in the coming few years.

In this war, there is no rule of engagement. You better be prepared to defend life, and property against the enemy.

During the aforementioned years, we carried, openly, everywhere we went. On multiple occasion that carry was necessary to defend ourselves, and our property. From Animals, yes, form people? Yes also.

I personally spent hundreds of nights keeping guard to protect our livestock. I personally worked along side Government employed hunters and trappers to control the immediate problem out hand.

The enemy at present, in Idaho, is quite suppressed in comparison. However the enemy is also much wiser. Yes, Elk's response is very different now for those reasons. Patterns, cycles, ranges, domineer around people (and other animals) all of the above. Yes, and yes.

There is no such thing as poaching a Wolf. Keep that in mind people of Colorado.

Over and out -
Joseph

Wow. mtmuley

 

[MTLabrador]

Wow. mtmuley

Yeah... Holy shit.

 

[Saranac84]

Make no mistake, Wolves are a tool, a weapon, used in a war against not only the rural west as a whole, but also the outdoors-man, hunter, conservationist, rancher etc.

In Idaho it reached it's worst in '08-'10. Ranching in the high desert of Idaho, at the base of mountain country, we experienced this warfare first hand. In a similar fashion to how Colorado, Oregon, Washington and other states are starting to figure out, and will undoubtedly feel the effects of in the coming few years.

In this war, there is no rule of engagement. You better be prepared to defend life, and property against the enemy.

During the aforementioned years, we carried, openly, everywhere we went. On multiple occasion that carry was necessary to defend ourselves, and our property. From Animals, yes, form people? Yes also.

I personally spent hundreds of nights keeping guard to protect our livestock. I personally worked along side Government employed hunters and trappers to control the immediate problem out hand.

The enemy at present, in Idaho, is quite suppressed in comparison. However the enemy is also much wiser. Yes, Elk's response is very different now for those reasons. Patterns, cycles, ranges, domineer around people (and other animals) all of the above. Yes, and yes.

There is no such thing as poaching a Wolf. Keep that in mind people of Colorado.

Over and out -
Joseph

I suspect in in 40 years when hunting and gun rights have withered away we'll have rhetoric like this to thank.

 

[appaloosa]

Make no mistake, Wolves are a tool, a weapon, used in a war against not only the rural west as a whole, but also the outdoors-man, hunter, conservationist, rancher etc.

In Idaho it reached it's worst in '08-'10. Ranching in the high desert of Idaho, at the base of mountain country, we experienced this warfare first hand. In a similar fashion to how Colorado, Oregon, Washington and other states are starting to figure out, and will undoubtedly feel the effects of in the coming few years.

In this war, there is no rule of engagement. You better be prepared to defend life, and property against the enemy.

During the aforementioned years, we carried, openly, everywhere we went. On multiple occasion that carry was necessary to defend ourselves, and our property. From Animals, yes, form people? Yes also.

I personally spent hundreds of nights keeping guard to protect our livestock. I personally worked along side Government employed hunters and trappers to control the immediate problem out hand.

The enemy at present, in Idaho, is quite suppressed in comparison. However the enemy is also much wiser. Yes, Elk's response is very different now for those reasons. Patterns, cycles, ranges, domineer around people (and other animals) all of the above. Yes, and yes.

There is no such thing as poaching a Wolf. Keep that in mind people of Colorado.

Over and out -
Joseph

I guarantee you, this attitude and the bs rhetoric are a greater threat to hunting and conservation than any wolf ever was or will be.

 

[Hydrophilic]

Wow. mtmuley

Have you been to other hunting forums before?

 

[mtmuley]

Have you been to other hunting forums before?

Yeah, why? mtmuley

 

[tillicant]

This thread has convinced me that state wildlife biologist keep a secret better than any other human. So I’m pretty convinced Bigfoot also exists. Just sayin.

Yeah, Oklahoma wouldn't try for a season if they didn't!

 

[old school]

There’s data on both sides to support their views - wolves help elk population vs wolves thin out the elk population.

With Bears and Lions already in place, how can adding another alpha predator be good for the elk or elk hunting? Seems to me that’s like saying adding a barn cat to the barn will help the mouse population. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Coyote Assassin]

The wolves bring/provide no financial support to businesses in any state, nor do they add financially to conservation funds. However, hunters do and many businesses depend on hunters support to stay in business. Money talks.......and when business owners start to complain about lack of hunters due to lack of elk, due to wolves, there just might be some ears opened of those in power. If the wolf issue is controlled through wolf tags, keeps the numbers in check, then it just might quiet enough complaints. But, if the wolves are left protected and not managed, it will undoubtedly turn into a worse scenario !

50% correct. They don't contribute much to conservation measures outside a few $$ in tag money here in Montana. But they do add to the economy from tourism from people who come to see them. The Lamar valley in YNP is open through winter for the benefit of the residents of Cooke City, and there are a significant number of people who go there to see wolves in the winter.

 

[HUNTNNW]

Excellent synopsis, and a case in point would be the Lolo zone in Idaho. It's always held up as the poster child by anti-wolf groups as ground zero for the apocalypse.

Do wolves affect elk numbers in the Lolo? Sure.
Is the habitat anywhere near what it could or should be? No.
Have there been significant winter kill events in the last 25 years? Absolutely.

Not only is habitat in long term decline, but at least one of the winterkill events was likely severe enough to potentially alter long term migrational patterns. It's a complex issue, and one that isn't going to be fixed with a war on wolves. A hard look at data shows the population starting its crash well before wolves were around. The lack of a rebound is most likely a combination of continued habitat decline and predation.

Yes there was decline in the Lolo herd starting, but that decline would be no where near where that herd is today without wolves present. It peaked at 16,000 estimated elk 25 years ago right at the re introduction time. Lets say the herd declined due to habitat and winter some years Id be willing to bet that herd would still be 10,000 animals without wolves. Yet IDFG will argue with you about how wolves dont impact the elk and its habitat and cougars. Yet they fly this unit every winter and shoot wolves and still dont have a accurate count on how many wolves actually live there. Its alot! Ive yet to capture a cougar on cam in the lolo, Ive seen 1 black bear in person and got 2 pictures out of 40,000 last year of bears. This is not what I call a bear infested or cougar filled land. Wanna capture cats and bears head over to WA and Ill show you predator filled areas and what that actually looks like.

I believe the elk have learned to adapt to wolves over time and seems to hold true in the Lolo.. I have a cam at a water hole that elk and wolves visit every single day and only minutes to hours apart and the elk dont leave. There were 14 wolves all summer and fall at this spot.I shot a bull there this fall