In many posts dealing with the issues of the western states, many complain of "being told of what to do" by those from the East. One thing I find interesting is that often, these issues deal largely with Federal Land. Couple that with that fact that only the sparsely (relative to eastern states) populated Western states recieve more from Federal Taxes than they pay in. Therefore, the states are making a 'profit' from government taxation. Or that most western states recieve 75% of their DWR funds from non-resident license sales. I find it interesting that this is often never taken into cosideration.
Eastern voice in Western States
- Thread starter 1_pointer
- Start date
That's right 1.
Did you also see that MT is nearly last in personal income?
Nearly everyone in the west is either a gov't employee or relies on govt employees for their own businesses.
I think one of the things is the people from some where else has already pillaged their land where they live and "made their fortunes", and before we can do the same in the west they want us to stop and be a tourism place for them. Kinda gets to us as them being hypocrites. It does make sense on many levels but we in the west sure would like for them to pay more so we could survive better. Great scenery only puts just so much food on the table.
Did you also see that MT is nearly last in personal income?
Nearly everyone in the west is either a gov't employee or relies on govt employees for their own businesses.
I think one of the things is the people from some where else has already pillaged their land where they live and "made their fortunes", and before we can do the same in the west they want us to stop and be a tourism place for them. Kinda gets to us as them being hypocrites. It does make sense on many levels but we in the west sure would like for them to pay more so we could survive better. Great scenery only puts just so much food on the table.
dgibson
New member
So basically we should send our money and keep the hell out. Nice.
I'm just about sick and tired of hearing about "rich easterners." Yes, there are well-off people here, but there are well-off people there too. Despite the common MISconception, people "back east" by and large bust their asses just as much and just as often for each dollar as you studs out West. You don't have a corner on the "hard work for little pay" market. Perhaps there are more factories and so forth here, but that's because there's a lot more people here. That means there are more roads here, more supporting industries, more methods of transportation. You have to have those things to make money and support jobs. Go ahead and pillage "your half" of the country. When it's a land of 100-acre fields and paved roads like this end maybe you'll understand the price for all of the great wealth we apparently have.
It's not being hypocritical to want to preserve the west; it's the act of having learned from our mistakes and trying to prevent the ruination of what's left.
I'm just about sick and tired of hearing about "rich easterners." Yes, there are well-off people here, but there are well-off people there too. Despite the common MISconception, people "back east" by and large bust their asses just as much and just as often for each dollar as you studs out West. You don't have a corner on the "hard work for little pay" market. Perhaps there are more factories and so forth here, but that's because there's a lot more people here. That means there are more roads here, more supporting industries, more methods of transportation. You have to have those things to make money and support jobs. Go ahead and pillage "your half" of the country. When it's a land of 100-acre fields and paved roads like this end maybe you'll understand the price for all of the great wealth we apparently have.
MarlandS
New member
Either you want a prosperous lifestyle or you want things to remain the same.
But right now you are living off our fed dollars and on that money we have a say, deal with it.
But right now you are living off our fed dollars and on that money we have a say, deal with it.
Ithaca 37
New member
It's the "locals" in the West who don't know how much they have to lose, and usually the only way they learn is the hard way. They like to think they're a bunch of tough, independent, macho Westerners, but they have this idea that they're owed a living by the gummint and they should be able to destroy gummint land to make money.
They want all kinds of services and benefits from their F&G Depts. but they whine and cry about any license increase. They expect non residents to pay ten times as much as residents for licenses so the "locals" will be subsidized, but they resent the non resident hunters and anglers coming to their states.
I'm embarrassed by their hypocricy when they bitch about everything they comment on in our SI forum.
One of the main reasons they hate the gummint so much is because they're so dependent on it. And they sure hate it when anyone points that out to them.
It's interesting to me that the ranchers and loggers have their macho image while they're as big a bunch of welfare cases as any welfare queen in the ghetto!
I love it when they claim they're entitled to gummint subsidies so they don't have to change their lifestyle!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-01-2003 23:14: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
They want all kinds of services and benefits from their F&G Depts. but they whine and cry about any license increase. They expect non residents to pay ten times as much as residents for licenses so the "locals" will be subsidized, but they resent the non resident hunters and anglers coming to their states.
I'm embarrassed by their hypocricy when they bitch about everything they comment on in our SI forum.
One of the main reasons they hate the gummint so much is because they're so dependent on it. And they sure hate it when anyone points that out to them.
It's interesting to me that the ranchers and loggers have their macho image while they're as big a bunch of welfare cases as any welfare queen in the ghetto!
I love it when they claim they're entitled to gummint subsidies so they don't have to change their lifestyle!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-01-2003 23:14: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
dgibson
New member
Gee Mars, nice paraphrasing. I gotta learn to reader's digest my posts like you do.
Muledeer4me
New member
Quote by Ithaca,
["I'm embarrassed by their hypocricy when they bitch about everything they comment on in our SI forum."
"It's interesting to me that the ranchers and loggers have their macho image while they're as big a bunch of welfare cases as any welfare queen in the ghetto!"]
Soooooo Ithaca, you know many ghetto welfare queen's? Or just alot of queen's?
Let me make it clear that I am embarrassed by the fact that Ithaca tries to come across like
all of Idaho share's his warped view's of the hard working Idaho people (rancher's) or any number of the hard working people that make up this State.
It is one type of outsider that the local's of most area's do not care for.
Those that only have contempt for those that were here first,and show no compassion to what (there want's and desire's ) REALLY are doing to the family's that have been in these area's for so long.
We have people from all over the country living in idaho,that share the same view's and values that where here from the start.
I think what the west is asking for is to be heard and have more say in the thing's that directly effect them.
It is not the whole invironmental thing that most western states are fighing against---it is the radical fringe .
The one's that put NO value on the family's that are beibg effected by the new rule's to the game.
Im sure the rancher's feel the same outrage as mar's and darren or any out-of-stater feel's when they think someone is
telling them to send money but keep the hell out!!!!!
If all side's remember the human factor maybe we will be able to come up with something that work's for both the eastern & western sides without making one or the other become what they aren't.
Macho rancher's LOL I think someone is missing the boat------------I know alot of macho guy's from all over the country that post on this board,I dont think the rancher has the corner on that.
Macho can bring up many face's,the one it doesn't bring up is the guy that has to alway's call other's stupid to get there point across.
I think macho no matter what type of job one hold's or how a person look's come's from the inside and show's itself in a way that is missing from some people no matter where they are from or how hard they try to convince us other wise by putting other people down.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-02-2003 10:29: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>
["I'm embarrassed by their hypocricy when they bitch about everything they comment on in our SI forum."
"It's interesting to me that the ranchers and loggers have their macho image while they're as big a bunch of welfare cases as any welfare queen in the ghetto!"]
Soooooo Ithaca, you know many ghetto welfare queen's? Or just alot of queen's?
Let me make it clear that I am embarrassed by the fact that Ithaca tries to come across like
all of Idaho share's his warped view's of the hard working Idaho people (rancher's) or any number of the hard working people that make up this State.
It is one type of outsider that the local's of most area's do not care for.
Those that only have contempt for those that were here first,and show no compassion to what (there want's and desire's ) REALLY are doing to the family's that have been in these area's for so long.
We have people from all over the country living in idaho,that share the same view's and values that where here from the start.
I think what the west is asking for is to be heard and have more say in the thing's that directly effect them.
It is not the whole invironmental thing that most western states are fighing against---it is the radical fringe .
The one's that put NO value on the family's that are beibg effected by the new rule's to the game.
Im sure the rancher's feel the same outrage as mar's and darren or any out-of-stater feel's when they think someone is
telling them to send money but keep the hell out!!!!!
If all side's remember the human factor maybe we will be able to come up with something that work's for both the eastern & western sides without making one or the other become what they aren't.
Macho rancher's LOL I think someone is missing the boat------------I know alot of macho guy's from all over the country that post on this board,I dont think the rancher has the corner on that.
Macho can bring up many face's,the one it doesn't bring up is the guy that has to alway's call other's stupid to get there point across.
I think macho no matter what type of job one hold's or how a person look's come's from the inside and show's itself in a way that is missing from some people no matter where they are from or how hard they try to convince us other wise by putting other people down.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-02-2003 10:29: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>
I for one would just as soon ya kept your money and stayed out.
But there is a thing called the nation and as citizens we all have a say in the mob. You do have a say in the national lands and environment but anytime someone points out that you folks already f*ed up your part of the nation and now you want to save our part, isn't that kinda hypocritical?
Everyone everywhere wants to have the basics, food, water, security. But at times it sounds like you want to have houses but you don't want to cut any trees. You want to have your gizmos and electricity but you don't want any mines or dams. Everyone wants reasonably priced, safe food but that also costs. Where do ya want to pay? Thru taxes, or at the store for the true cost? Everything costs, nothing is free, all just a matter of where do you want to pay. It almost sounds like some people have no clue where all the stuff they want and have even comes from.
But there is a thing called the nation and as citizens we all have a say in the mob. You do have a say in the national lands and environment but anytime someone points out that you folks already f*ed up your part of the nation and now you want to save our part, isn't that kinda hypocritical?
Everyone everywhere wants to have the basics, food, water, security. But at times it sounds like you want to have houses but you don't want to cut any trees. You want to have your gizmos and electricity but you don't want any mines or dams. Everyone wants reasonably priced, safe food but that also costs. Where do ya want to pay? Thru taxes, or at the store for the true cost? Everything costs, nothing is free, all just a matter of where do you want to pay. It almost sounds like some people have no clue where all the stuff they want and have even comes from.
Ithaca 37
New member
MD4M, "hard working Idaho people (rancher's)"
Just because they work hard doesn't give them the right to abuse public land.
Just because they work hard doesn't give them the right to abuse public land.
1-point
Yes it is a matter of perception. Some of the folks in the west have an entitlement thinking and some folks other places have a, I think almost an envy, mentality.
I beleive it'll take some time for each of the two perpectives to find some common ground to realize that most everyone is working toward the same goals. Some people are just ahead of the others in certain areas.
Yes it is a matter of perception. Some of the folks in the west have an entitlement thinking and some folks other places have a, I think almost an envy, mentality.
I beleive it'll take some time for each of the two perpectives to find some common ground to realize that most everyone is working toward the same goals. Some people are just ahead of the others in certain areas.
Muledeer4me
New member
The whole quote was-------
"hard working Idaho people (rancher's) or any number of the hard working people that make up this State."
We all get your hate for the rancher's LOL but lets not be putting the twist on what I posted.
Idaho is made up of alot of good hard working people and I would put ranchers right up there ,say as apposed to ummmmmmmm oh an X (Glass importer exporter)
"hard working Idaho people (rancher's) or any number of the hard working people that make up this State."
We all get your hate for the rancher's LOL but lets not be putting the twist on what I posted.
Idaho is made up of alot of good hard working people and I would put ranchers right up there ,say as apposed to ummmmmmmm oh an X (Glass importer exporter)
Ithaca 37
New member
MD4M, You always make it sound like just because someone is hard working they are entitled to subsidies and it's OK if they abuse public land.
I don't care how hard anyone works. I still don't want them to abuse public land. Remember, more than 50% of BLM is in poor condition due to grazing.
Maybe you think that's OK as long as the ranchers doing it are "hard working".
BTW, I wouldn't say they work all that hard. You call riding around in a pickup truck and throwing a few bales of hay out every morning hard work? Right after that they're heading for the local cafe to talk about the weather.
PS, While I was starting a new business the glass business took off again and now I'm swamped with running two businesses and thinking about hiring an employee or two.
Changing my lifestyle wasn't too bad and I'm sure a rancher could do it if they tried. I've survived it a few times and never whined for a subsidy from the gummint, never thought I was entitled to anything, never even considered bitching about it, and sold out and moved when I could see that was the best way to handle the problem. I fail to see what makes ranchers so special that they can't do the same.
I don't care how hard anyone works. I still don't want them to abuse public land. Remember, more than 50% of BLM is in poor condition due to grazing.
Maybe you think that's OK as long as the ranchers doing it are "hard working".
BTW, I wouldn't say they work all that hard. You call riding around in a pickup truck and throwing a few bales of hay out every morning hard work? Right after that they're heading for the local cafe to talk about the weather.
PS, While I was starting a new business the glass business took off again and now I'm swamped with running two businesses and thinking about hiring an employee or two.
Changing my lifestyle wasn't too bad and I'm sure a rancher could do it if they tried. I've survived it a few times and never whined for a subsidy from the gummint, never thought I was entitled to anything, never even considered bitching about it, and sold out and moved when I could see that was the best way to handle the problem. I fail to see what makes ranchers so special that they can't do the same.
MarlandS
New member
Lostagain could you get whole sentences so I know what the hell you're talking about?
My generation did not screw up our area the generations before mine did, we see the impact from it and are trying to fix it.
On the other hand the current generation is still screwing up BLM grazing lands and nat'l forests in the West.
So what was your arguement?.
What about the lumber? All our building lumber comes from Canada. And our hardwoods come from local (eastern) Mills.
Hell yes we want to save the west, it's all that's left, the extraction industries whipped the shit out of the east. Travel here sometime I'll show you what I mean.
My generation did not screw up our area the generations before mine did, we see the impact from it and are trying to fix it.
On the other hand the current generation is still screwing up BLM grazing lands and nat'l forests in the West.
So what was your arguement?.
What about the lumber? All our building lumber comes from Canada. And our hardwoods come from local (eastern) Mills.
Hell yes we want to save the west, it's all that's left, the extraction industries whipped the shit out of the east. Travel here sometime I'll show you what I mean.
sdgunslinger
New member
Marland , I do find your attitude kind of curious as of late . Don't forget you are making your living from a so-called "extraction" business yourself ........
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 07:34: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 07:34: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What about the lumber? All our building lumber comes from Canada. And our hardwoods come from local (eastern) Mills.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LMAO!!!!
The reason the hard woods come from the east is because that is where they grow...
All of the building wood doesn't come out of Canada. Part of it comes from the pacific northwest and I see log trucks going by all the time, I also see the local mill is full of logs...Our wood goes to certain things just like the hard woods do. It has to come out of a certain part of the country, because that is were it grows best. We would and could use more of our own wood if it werent for the medow muffins getting it all shut down for one reason or another..Same reason the mines have all but shut down, it isn't because we don't have it. There is only so much money in the raw products and if all the profit is given to the lawyers to try and extract it, then what good is it to work your tail off to get it....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LMAO!!!!
The reason the hard woods come from the east is because that is where they grow...
All of the building wood doesn't come out of Canada. Part of it comes from the pacific northwest and I see log trucks going by all the time, I also see the local mill is full of logs...Our wood goes to certain things just like the hard woods do. It has to come out of a certain part of the country, because that is were it grows best. We would and could use more of our own wood if it werent for the medow muffins getting it all shut down for one reason or another..Same reason the mines have all but shut down, it isn't because we don't have it. There is only so much money in the raw products and if all the profit is given to the lawyers to try and extract it, then what good is it to work your tail off to get it....
MarlandS
New member
Russ, all the tags on lumber in the yards here are from Canada.. remember the finger was pointed at me.
SD, I'll explain my attitude later when I have more time, but thanks for noticing (really)
SD, I'll explain my attitude later when I have more time, but thanks for noticing (really)
MarlandS
New member
SD I spent the better part of an hour trying to find a link between grain farming and resource extraction industries, I can find where we use products from extraction industries and I can find extraction industries that have been born of farming .. but no one has called it as such ..interesting concept..
but I counter that were farming to cease today that in a year one would be hard pressed to see that it existed and in 20 years I doubt any evidence at all would be seen. Since we take out what WE put in, I would hardly call it extraction, ofcourse if you got down to the nutrient level, yes, I would agree to a point.
Yet 20 years after a clearcut is done evidence will still be easily seen as would the remnants of mining , granted the oil industry would be invisible faster than all.
The biggest extraction industry left in the east is construction, watching 80 acre plots getting covered with asphalt and concrete is hard to take.
Besides, I haven't seen anyone whining about the farming yet, except me and Darren and that's from our selfish hunting aspects.
but I counter that were farming to cease today that in a year one would be hard pressed to see that it existed and in 20 years I doubt any evidence at all would be seen. Since we take out what WE put in, I would hardly call it extraction, ofcourse if you got down to the nutrient level, yes, I would agree to a point.
Yet 20 years after a clearcut is done evidence will still be easily seen as would the remnants of mining , granted the oil industry would be invisible faster than all.
The biggest extraction industry left in the east is construction, watching 80 acre plots getting covered with asphalt and concrete is hard to take.
Besides, I haven't seen anyone whining about the farming yet, except me and Darren and that's from our selfish hunting aspects.
Mars...
I do know that alot less lumber is being sold in the U.S by our people, part of the reason being that the enviro wackos have made the logging part of life way to expensive for us to harvest the way it should be done. But since I am really for all purposes out of the trade, it makes it better for the trade I have moved into. Fire fighting will get to be bigger and bigger every year now that the timber harvesting has all but ceased. So there is a silver lining in almost every cloud..LOL...
I do know that alot less lumber is being sold in the U.S by our people, part of the reason being that the enviro wackos have made the logging part of life way to expensive for us to harvest the way it should be done. But since I am really for all purposes out of the trade, it makes it better for the trade I have moved into. Fire fighting will get to be bigger and bigger every year now that the timber harvesting has all but ceased. So there is a silver lining in almost every cloud..LOL...
Muledeer4me
New member
Mars ,I think we havent gone over the farm aspect of it because you havent pissed off the right person yet.
It's out there and the farmer line's up along side the rancher in terms of how some of these wacko's feel about what they are doing to the land.
Agriculturl contamination, these are a few I thought of right off.
Soil erosion
Groundwater contamination
Pesticide use & managment
Animal production and processing
riparin managment
Lets talk about (in my area)we have housing tracts going up next to farm's.
Then the new homeowners start bitching about
The noise from the tractor
Bailing hay at strange hour's (they have no clue why the farmed pickes the time he does to bail his hay )
They bitch about the fly's ,the smell,the chemicals.
The dirt that gets kicked up from plowing.
The smoke from burning.
It's out there and the farmer line's up along side the rancher in terms of how some of these wacko's feel about what they are doing to the land.
Agriculturl contamination, these are a few I thought of right off.
Soil erosion
Groundwater contamination
Pesticide use & managment
Animal production and processing
riparin managment
Lets talk about (in my area)we have housing tracts going up next to farm's.
Then the new homeowners start bitching about
The noise from the tractor
Bailing hay at strange hour's (they have no clue why the farmed pickes the time he does to bail his hay )
They bitch about the fly's ,the smell,the chemicals.
The dirt that gets kicked up from plowing.
The smoke from burning.
Ithaca 37
New member
"They bitch about the fly's ,the smell,the chemicals."
The dairy farms are getting lots of controversy, that's for sure. Most of the dairy farmers have moved to ID from CA because our regulations are much more lax than CA.
The big difference to me is that the farmers are on their own land (or private land), not gummint land.
And there's no way I can see that farmers are destroying their own land the way the welfare ranchers are destroying gummint land.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-04-2003 19:31: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
The dairy farms are getting lots of controversy, that's for sure. Most of the dairy farmers have moved to ID from CA because our regulations are much more lax than CA.
The big difference to me is that the farmers are on their own land (or private land), not gummint land.
And there's no way I can see that farmers are destroying their own land the way the welfare ranchers are destroying gummint land.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-04-2003 19:31: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
