Domestic Livestock in the Bighorn National Forest

[birdseye]

I was thinking the same thing. I was in the Lamar back in mid July. It looked bad then. Here is a google earth shot of the Lamar. Notice the difference between the Lamar and the North fork of the Tongue. The Tongue looks fantastic compared to Lamar. There is little to no vegetation on the banks of the Lamar and the stream bank damage looks extensive. The Lamar has been pounded by Bison and elk for decades and it shows.

ANTLERRADAR, you must of missed my earlier reply to you (regarding N. Tongue drainage):
I just pulled up same GE image. at very bottom it states "Imagery Date: 9/17/2023"
That's a 2 year old aerial. We're talking about today, 10-1-2025

not your fault, we all assume that Google Earth images are current, but not so. I've seen images 5+ yr old
Believe me, if there's some current aerial image of the N. Tongue, it would look nothing like the 9/17/2023 shot

 

[Forkyfinder]

Reasons why birdseye is full of it regarding fall 2025 range conditions on some portions of the the Bighorn NF:

• You probably eat beef, you hypocrite
• Bet the dirty ranches are herding elk, too
• Last administration did it as well
• Forest fires
• Pictures or it didn't happen
• Some ranchers don't overgraze
• Some jurisdictions cut AUM during drought
• There's a rancher in NM going the extra mile
• Bison do it too
• I didn't see it
• Cattle and sheep ranching businesses are subject to environmental and market forces that cause uncertainty for those families. When those businesses rely upon forage on federal grazing allotments for which management decisions are made by their neighbors and friends, the management system is doomed to fail the ecosystem in favor of mitigating human impacts.

Wait, maybe that last one belongs in a different category.

Two cattle grazing allotments on the Coronado National Forest below. Some ranchers do it correctly, some don't.

View attachment 387615

To be clear @Oak - i do believe @birdseye

What i dont believe though - that anyone will be convinced that grazing is and can be a problem without evidence. No doubt - some (if i had to guess, people who benefit) will attack the evidence - specifically validity and credibility.

But without something objective to even discuss, its just people yelling their perspective/experience.

 

[antlerradar]

ANTLERRADAR, you must of missed my earlier reply to you (regarding N. Tongue drainage):
I just pulled up same GE image. at very bottom it states "Imagery Date: 9/17/2023"
That's a 2 year old aerial. We're talking about today, 10-1-2025

not your fault, we all assume that Google Earth images are current, but not so. I've seen images 5+ yr old
Believe me, if there's some current aerial image of the N. Tongue, it would look nothing like the 9/17/2023 shot

I didn't miss it, When you are in a hole quit digging.

 

[birdseye]

Antlerrader: Quit digging? You've basing your "experience" with the N. Tongue Drainage by a 2 year old Aerial Photo?
again, 2 YEARS ago? But, you say that the N. Tongue drainage today is just hunky dory. Maybe it was on your baseline of Sept. 17, 2023.
Do you understand a calendar?

 

[Forkyfinder]

On the one lease, we got them off the truck and loaded them on when it was time to leave. Landowner handled everything else in between. The other wasn't that much more.

Id hang on to that lease. In addition it being way less than the current going rate - we know for sure it wont be the same price in 40 years.

 

[Handlebar]

If there was constant and historical over grazing on that section of the N. Tounge it is hard to see how the sinuosity of that riparian channel would be maintained

 

[Oak]

To be clear @Oak - i do believe @birdseye

What i dont believe though - that anyone will be convinced that grazing is and can be a problem without evidence. No doubt - some (if i had to guess, people who benefit) will attack the evidence - specifically validity and credibility.

But without something objective to even discuss, its just people yelling their perspective/experience.

Yeah, I get it, and I agree. But in general, I think most here are in agreement on the issue. It seems silly to argue over the specific instance when we all understand the general premise.

I would never go to a federal agency and complain about a problem for which I haven't documented the evidence myself. I get phone calls from people reporting grazing issues related to bighorn sheep they think I should address all the time, and if they don't have photos I pretty much tell them their report is worthless. Because that's how the federal managers treat those reports.

 

[birdseye]

I was thinking the same thing. I was in the Lamar back in mid July. It looked bad then. Here is a google earth shot of the Lamar. Notice the difference between the Lamar and the North fork of the Tongue. The Tongue looks fantastic compared to Lamar. There is little to no vegetation on the banks of the Lamar and the stream bank damage looks extensive. The Lamar has been pounded by Bison and elk for decades and it shows.View attachment 387610

There you go again, did you realize that the GE image of the Lamar Valley you're referencing is from Sept 15, 2015???
TEN YEAR OLD IMAGE, dude!? But you want to use is as a baseline for October 2025 conditions on the N. Tongue drainage in the BHNF?!?

Anterradar, you're clearly out of your element

 

[Forkyfinder]

But in general, I think most here are in agreement on the issue.

This is where i dont agree.

Plenty of folks seem to think its a pretty good deal to charge crumbs for their unfettered access to abuse.

Odd how water quality in the west was so bad from buffalo shit in the 1800s and i nevet had heard

 

[Forkyfinder]

Anterradar, you're clearly out of your element

I go in to shit like this guns hot and ready all the time. Its pretty much done no good. Especially when your goal is likely to bring awareness to your perception of a problem.

I can tell you @antlerradar probably knows a thing or two about that area and about grazing.

Im not telling you to quit digging. Im telling you to prove it - for anyone that googles it - cause this is what someone sees when they search it.

 

[NR_Hunter]

ANTLERRADAR, you must of missed my earlier reply to you (regarding N. Tongue drainage):
I just pulled up same GE image. at very bottom it states "Imagery Date: 9/17/2023"
That's a 2 year old aerial. We're talking about today, 10-1-2025

not your fault, we all assume that Google Earth images are current, but not so. I've seen images 5+ yr old
Believe me, if there's some current aerial image of the N. Tongue, it would look nothing like the 9/17/2023 shot

That’s really depressing. I fished that part of the NFT in July of that year. That’s a special stretch of water.

 

[Drake4]

Antlerrader: Quit digging? You've basing your "experience" with the N. Tongue Drainage by a 2 year old Aerial Photo?
again, 2 YEARS ago? But, you say that the N. Tongue drainage today is just hunky dory. Maybe it was on your baseline of Sept. 17, 2023.
Do you understand a calendar?

Is 8 days ago recent enough for you?

Looks like an overgrazed wasteland to me.

I would tend to think that the rancher you are arguing with knows just a bit about grazing.

Carry on…

 

[BearLakeHunter]

Even if grazing use is monitored, the weak link are the riparian areas and streams. No cow can resist flat ground, abundant water, and perpetually green tender grass. The eat the hell out of everything, and graze the shrubs while they are standing around. They stay there with tight lips as long as possible before having to go upslope for a full belly.

One solution is riparian exclusion fencing with occasional water gaps if necessary for drinking water. Would only be necessary on streams with gradients of 3% or less as they are vegetatively controlled banks while steeper gradients are boulder or rock controlled. However, as a taxpayer, fencing and maintenance are expensive.....at $1.35 per AUM (compared to $20+ on private), the public is already being taken for a ride. Less than 4% of cattle grazing takes place on public lands. Figuring all the administration, fencing, water developments, cattle guards the public is basically financing virtually all the grazing expenses to benefit a relatively few ranchers, some of who are billionaires (while some are certainly not). Not to discount the damage these critters are doing to our streams and riparian areas and creating conditions for invasive plant species.

Riparian areas are THE key driver to when we move pastures in our allotment area. Their condition is monitored very closely by the feds and other watchdog environmental groups. If the riparian areas are at their limit, it doesn’t matter what the rest of the pasture looks like, we are moving pastures.

 

[Handlebar]

Is 8 days ago recent enough for you?View attachment 387622View attachment 387623View attachment 387624View attachment 387626

Looks like an overgrazed wasteland to me.

I would tend to think that the rancher you are arguing with knows just a bit about grazing.

Carry on…

O

Is 8 days ago recent enough for you?View attachment 387622View attachment 387623View attachment 387624View attachment 387626

Looks like an overgrazed wasteland to me.

I would tend to think that the rancher you are arguing with knows just a bit about grazing.

Carry on…

that is some good looking country

 

[birdseye]

I go in to shit like this guns hot and ready all the time. Its pretty much done no good. Especially when your goal is likely to bring awareness to your perception of a problem.

I can tell you @antlerradar probably knows a thing or two about that area and about grazing.

Im not telling you to quit digging. Im telling you to prove it - for anyone that googles it - cause this is what someone sees when they search it.

you don't know where to find the image date on Google Earth? Since apparently not, you've solved the space & time continuum by making 2015 into 2025

 

[BearLakeHunter]

On the one lease, we got them off the truck and loaded them on when it was time to leave. Landowner handled everything else in between. The other wasn't that much more.

We were only on the private lease 2 1/2 months, 30 to 40 Lb a head will easily cover the extra lease payment, At today's prices a 1% increase in pregnancy rates will nearly cover a month of the higher grazing fees for 100 head of cows. I am hoping for 3% better but wouldn't be surprised if it is more.
Normally we have two seperate herds of cattle one that primaily grazes our private land and the other that is on a forest lease. The private herd has weaned calves that weigh 40 to 70 lbs more than the forest herd for as long as I can remember. Preg rates are also a bit better on the private herd even though we run fewer cows per bull on the forest to try to compinsate. I wonce figured I could pay more than 15 dollars an AUM for our private and still make more per cow than I do with the forest herd and prices were much lower then.
It ties back to the way the land was settled. When the homesteaders started settling eastern MT in the 1880's they would lay claim to the best 160 and in later years 640 acres that was available. When the homestead act was discontinued the land that was unclaimed became BLM land. The best BLM grazing lease is not as good as the poorest private land in throy. Forest land was removed from the homestead act before the act was discontinued so in throy much of the forest land is better than the poorest private, but not as good as most private. Because of this Gov leases are just not as productive as a private lease and there for not worth as much.

First of all it is not that easy to find a private lease, If the cow herd in eastern MT was not near the bottom in terms of numbers and that other ranchers wanted to help those that were burned out, I doubt we would have been able to find a private lease.
Second, economics states that if marginal revenue is greater then margional cost it is worth it to do.
Could I make more money by ditching the forest lease and going private. It is possable, maybe even likely, but I would have to put substantal money in to infisrtucre to make it work and would need to find a long term private lease to make it worth while. I have thought about this often.

As stated here, there are piles of evidence that shows private leases can be very advantageous and a benefit. We have seen it ourselves. Our pregnancy rates are better, the calf weight is heavier, the health of the mother cow is better on private leases compared to forest range. It’s just as antlerradar has stated. The problem is finding private ground to run on in the summer. Unfortunately, they are not that readily available in the west, especially if you want to move all cattle off public and onto private. It simply isn’t possible. If it was, we would do it in a heart beat.

 

[Forkyfinder]

If it was, we would do it in a heart beat.

 

[antlerradar]

Id hang on to that lease. In addition it being way less than the current going rate - we know for sure it wont be the same price in 40 years.

Those leases were one time deals.

 

[Bighorner]

Is 8 days ago recent enough for you?View attachment 387622View attachment 387623View attachment 387624View attachment 387626

Looks like an overgrazed wasteland to me.

I would tend to think that the rancher you are arguing with knows just a bit about grazing.

Carry on…

Spot burner

 

[antlerradar]

If there was constant and historical over grazing on that section of the N. Tounge it is hard to see how the sinuosity of that riparian channel would be maintained

That is right, What birdseye doesn't get is the date on the google shots is not that important, maybe the dry year has it looking poorer than normal, but with Drake's pictures it doesn't look like it has changed much. What the google shot of the Tongue does show is that the managers on the Big Horn are doing something right. If they weren't, you would not have that channel and all of the vegetation. If they were allowing the abuse that is alleged, you would have something that looks more like the Lamar than what is currently on the Tongue.