Does anybody really regulate outfitters on USFS lands?

[elkduds]

Man, I am late to this conversation. I retired after close to 40 years with the EwwEssEffEess! Loved it and hated it at the same time. Administered OG Permits, Range , Fire Management Officer, Hydrology, Recreation, etc. Folks just don't understand how funding works. Totally micromanaged by congress! When the Cowboys don't want grazing allotments managed, funding is cut to the bone (usually during Republican administrations). Same with timber during Democrat rulers. OG permits, especially hunting, never have funding! You do it when you get a chance. Just issuing permits is usually all you can do. I administered a permit where the outfitter murdered his wife (who he was beating on) and her boyfriend and was never found. Good and bad in that bunch. I had to permit an outfitter that had been convicted of treeing lions, tying the hounds to the tree, and then flying the fat ass hunter from down south somewhere in to kill the lion 2 days later. Convicted by Colorado Division of Wildlife! Went to the good Congress man's office with his SOB story of how Thomas Jefferson was a houndsman and the mean FS was out to get him, and I was instructed to issue the permit. Don't get me going on Range magazine and their BS narratives of how they are abused by land management agencies. Especially Cliven Bundy! Tring to administer grazing allotments can really suck due to the politics involved. Do folks on Hunt Talk realize that the Colorado Cattleman's Association constantly complains about high GMU elk populations? And now they're afraid of wolves? And don't get me started on Fire Mgmt. and how that has sucked half the FS budget down that worthless black hole. I can talk a lot of shit about the FS, good and bad. An IPA and Punch Double Maduro and I can't shut up!

Enthusiastic welcome to HT!

 

[PrairieHunter]

I have yet to find something the USFS is really good at.

We can likely add managing outfitters on federal land to that list with managing recreation, enforcing laws, managing timber, managing grazing, fire management, running a career training program, managing the real estate side of their property, etc..

Most states could turn a profit managing things like grazing, timber, etc.. But the USFS requires 7.4 billion $ per year and wastes $ at pretty much everything they do.

I know there are some good people there, but there are also a lot of people who don't do much of anything and get paid to show up while never being held accountable for performance.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Put me down for being amongst the folks here that are NOT impressed with both the USFS and BLM.
In my area, there is an Outfitter with 2 fully guided camps and 2 drop camps fairly close together. This Outfitter is a total
slob. If you visit his camps in the off season, you'll find a plethora of litter in partially burned water bottles, underwear, propane bottles candy wrappers, and other assorted items all over the place. Thing is, much of it could have been burned, or packed out if he had a litter bag set out. Then, he hides a whole bunch of stuff in his camps rather than packing it out. Also leaves electric fence wire up rather than taking it down. I've taken lots of photos and sent them to the District Office and never get a reply, and I'm pretty sure they never check on this themselves, as the litter issues get worse over time, rather than cleaned up as a result of them getting spanked.
The BLM completely ignores cattle grazing on their lands that are in clear violation of the permittees alloted dates. In viewing this issue, it's actually more work for them NOT to do their job, than it is to do it. Why is this?

They are cowards for the most part. Afraid to speak up and do their job. They just "let it slide" and their boss could care less. They still get the same $ very month no matter if they do their job or not.

How long did they let Bundy keep grazing after he kept paying?

There was another one recently

Utah rancher enjoys free home on the range, courtesy of U.S. taxpayers

The Bureau of Land Management has allowed ranchers Sandy and Gail Johnson to live on public land in Fry Canyon, now inside Bears Ears National Monument, without rent for 45 years.

www.sltrib.com

 

[Nick_CO]

Encountering this exact issue at the moment with the Gunnison Ranger District. I emailed them requesting Outfitter Camp Locations for one of the areas over there and recieved this response:


"Good morning,



We do not have maps of outfitter camp locations available. You can find a list of outfitters permitted to work on the Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests here: https://www.fs.usda.gov/r02/gmug/recreation

Look under the drop-down menu of Lists of Permitted Outfitters and Recreation Service Providers by District."


So basically this USFS employee is suggesting I look up all the Outfitters in the area and call them one by one and ask where their camps are? Not happening.

I replied to this email explaining to her that a few years ago a neighboring Forest Service Ranger District provided me their Outfitter Camp Location Maps via email so I'm curious why her office cannot do the same since the camp locations are literally assigned to them by her office. I'll update this as it progresses for those curious, and I will not be giving up easily. My main objective here is to find these camp locations so that I don't unknowingly set up my own camp right next to Outfitters this fall in an area I have little knowledge of. Surely I can't be the first to have requested this info from them?

 

[SAJ-99]

My main objective here is to find these camp locations so that I don't unknowingly set up my own camp right next to Outfitters this fall in an area I have little knowledge of. Surely I can't be the first to have requested this info from them?

I have had similar frustrations, but think of it another way. What if your intent was to knowingly set up camp near to the outfitter?

 

[cedahm]

This thread being resurrected reminded me to do this for a district in NW colorado.

Just sent an email to their special permits admin (and I specifically requested GIS data) and will report back. My guess is I'll get the same response (a list of names and numbers) and will move to an FOIA at that point, but should be fun.

 

[Nick_CO]

I have had similar frustrations, but think of it another way. What if your intent was to knowingly set up camp near to the outfitter?

It would be a dick move to knowingly set up camp right near an outfitter camp. Not to mention it would not be very beneficial for the diy hunter to do so in most cases. But it's not illegal so that should have no influence on whether or not the FS shares that info with me right?

If one FS office sent me this info upon request but another will not, the most likely answer is office disorganization or an individual employee's views or opinions on whether or not it should be distributed. For the outfitters' sake I get not posting this right out in the open on the USFS website, but if the info is not officially confidential it doesn't seem like it should be withheld from individual public requests like mine.

 

[Nick_CO]

This thread being resurrected reminded me to do this for a district in NW colorado.

Just sent an email to their special permits admin (and I specifically requested GIS data) and will report back. My guess is I'll get the same response (a list of names and numbers) and will move to an FOIA at that point, but should be fun.

Good luck!

 

[Mallardsx2]

All this fuss only to call the douchebags and have them tell you that they aren't interested in helping you pack something out because they are already getting $4500 a man for a drop camp and that they will be busy. lol

 

[cedahm]

This thread being resurrected reminded me to do this for a district in NW colorado.

Just sent an email to their special permits admin (and I specifically requested GIS data) and will report back. My guess is I'll get the same response (a list of names and numbers) and will move to an FOIA at that point, but should be fun.

I have to say I'm slightly shocked - got a response within 2 hours with a pdf of the outfitter allotment area boundaries - which is only mildly helpful (in our particular area of interest, one outfitter has most of the unit) but was fast.

I followed up with a question on whether the outfitters have campsite locations filed with the FS office (and noted that there is an active Forest Order - through 2029 - for this national forest that prohibits "Camping within 200 feet of a posted sign reserving a site for a commercial outfitter" - so we'd like to know in advance where to avoid).

 

[Big Sky Guy]

The forest service came out with an app similar to OnX this past year. An outfitter camp layer would be primo for planning hunts (to avoid the outfitter camps IMO) and would surely help a lot of you folks out. All I was hoping for was to be able to click on their trails and see when they were last cleared and that seemed like a pipe dream. Outfitter camps seems like an even bigger pie in the sky after reading all this.

On one hand I totally understand the outfitters concern of not sharing their camps as one could pretty easily deduce where the critters are and where they hunt just by using a radius from their camps . . . but on the other hand it is public land and wildlife.