elkduds
Well-known member
Enthusiastic welcome to HT!
Does anybody really regulate outfitters on USFS lands?
- Thread starter Khunter
- Start date
PrairieHunter
Well-known member
I have yet to find something the USFS is really good at.
We can likely add managing outfitters on federal land to that list with managing recreation, enforcing laws, managing timber, managing grazing, fire management, running a career training program, managing the real estate side of their property, etc..
Most states could turn a profit managing things like grazing, timber, etc.. But the USFS requires 7.4 billion $ per year and wastes $ at pretty much everything they do.
I know there are some good people there, but there are also a lot of people who don't do much of anything and get paid to show up while never being held accountable for performance.
We can likely add managing outfitters on federal land to that list with managing recreation, enforcing laws, managing timber, managing grazing, fire management, running a career training program, managing the real estate side of their property, etc..
Most states could turn a profit managing things like grazing, timber, etc.. But the USFS requires 7.4 billion $ per year and wastes $ at pretty much everything they do.
I know there are some good people there, but there are also a lot of people who don't do much of anything and get paid to show up while never being held accountable for performance.
PrairieHunter
Well-known member
They are cowards for the most part. Afraid to speak up and do their job. They just "let it slide" and their boss could care less. They still get the same $ very month no matter if they do their job or not.
How long did they let Bundy keep grazing after he kept paying?
There was another one recently
Utah rancher enjoys free home on the range, courtesy of U.S. taxpayers
The Bureau of Land Management has allowed ranchers Sandy and Gail Johnson to live on public land in Fry Canyon, now inside Bears Ears National Monument, without rent for 45 years.
Encountering this exact issue at the moment with the Gunnison Ranger District. I emailed them requesting Outfitter Camp Locations for one of the areas over there and recieved this response:
"Good morning,
We do not have maps of outfitter camp locations available. You can find a list of outfitters permitted to work on the Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests here: https://www.fs.usda.gov/r02/gmug/recreation
Look under the drop-down menu of Lists of Permitted Outfitters and Recreation Service Providers by District."
So basically this USFS employee is suggesting I look up all the Outfitters in the area and call them one by one and ask where their camps are? Not happening.
I replied to this email explaining to her that a few years ago a neighboring Forest Service Ranger District provided me their Outfitter Camp Location Maps via email so I'm curious why her office cannot do the same since the camp locations are literally assigned to them by her office. I'll update this as it progresses for those curious, and I will not be giving up easily. My main objective here is to find these camp locations so that I don't unknowingly set up my own camp right next to Outfitters this fall in an area I have little knowledge of. Surely I can't be the first to have requested this info from them?
"Good morning,
We do not have maps of outfitter camp locations available. You can find a list of outfitters permitted to work on the Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests here: https://www.fs.usda.gov/r02/gmug/recreation
Look under the drop-down menu of Lists of Permitted Outfitters and Recreation Service Providers by District."
So basically this USFS employee is suggesting I look up all the Outfitters in the area and call them one by one and ask where their camps are? Not happening.
I replied to this email explaining to her that a few years ago a neighboring Forest Service Ranger District provided me their Outfitter Camp Location Maps via email so I'm curious why her office cannot do the same since the camp locations are literally assigned to them by her office. I'll update this as it progresses for those curious, and I will not be giving up easily. My main objective here is to find these camp locations so that I don't unknowingly set up my own camp right next to Outfitters this fall in an area I have little knowledge of. Surely I can't be the first to have requested this info from them?
SAJ-99
Well-known member
I have had similar frustrations, but think of it another way. What if your intent was to knowingly set up camp near to the outfitter?
This thread being resurrected reminded me to do this for a district in NW colorado.
Just sent an email to their special permits admin (and I specifically requested GIS data) and will report back. My guess is I'll get the same response (a list of names and numbers) and will move to an FOIA at that point, but should be fun.
Just sent an email to their special permits admin (and I specifically requested GIS data) and will report back. My guess is I'll get the same response (a list of names and numbers) and will move to an FOIA at that point, but should be fun.
It would be a dick move to knowingly set up camp right near an outfitter camp. Not to mention it would not be very beneficial for the diy hunter to do so in most cases. But it's not illegal so that should have no influence on whether or not the FS shares that info with me right?
If one FS office sent me this info upon request but another will not, the most likely answer is office disorganization or an individual employee's views or opinions on whether or not it should be distributed. For the outfitters' sake I get not posting this right out in the open on the USFS website, but if the info is not officially confidential it doesn't seem like it should be withheld from individual public requests like mine.
Good luck!
Mallardsx2
Well-known member
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- Apr 4, 2015
- Messages
- 3,615
All this fuss only to call the douchebags and have them tell you that they aren't interested in helping you pack something out because they are already getting $4500 a man for a drop camp and that they will be busy. lol
I have to say I'm slightly shocked - got a response within 2 hours with a pdf of the outfitter allotment area boundaries - which is only mildly helpful (in our particular area of interest, one outfitter has most of the unit) but was fast.
I followed up with a question on whether the outfitters have campsite locations filed with the FS office (and noted that there is an active Forest Order - through 2029 - for this national forest that prohibits "Camping within 200 feet of a posted sign reserving a site for a commercial outfitter" - so we'd like to know in advance where to avoid).
Big Sky Guy
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The forest service came out with an app similar to OnX this past year. An outfitter camp layer would be primo for planning hunts (to avoid the outfitter camps IMO) and would surely help a lot of you folks out. All I was hoping for was to be able to click on their trails and see when they were last cleared and that seemed like a pipe dream. Outfitter camps seems like an even bigger pie in the sky after reading all this.
On one hand I totally understand the outfitters concern of not sharing their camps as one could pretty easily deduce where the critters are and where they hunt just by using a radius from their camps . . . but on the other hand it is public land and wildlife.
On one hand I totally understand the outfitters concern of not sharing their camps as one could pretty easily deduce where the critters are and where they hunt just by using a radius from their camps . . . but on the other hand it is public land and wildlife.
Nothing stopping you then from getting out and doing your own scouting. That said, if you are willing to share all of your OnX pins relative to public land and wildlife, I won't say no ....
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Sure it would be a dick move. And we all know there are no dicks in the hunting community. Lol
I get it. Like I said, I have encountered the same frustration. I have also called outfitters to ask where they camp so I can avoid them. You want me to tell you how forthcoming they were with that info? Lol.
You are asking for something that may not exist. Yes it is public info to a degree, but the USFS is understaffed so I can see why not all offices have a shareable map. Outfitter’s special use permits allow them to operate in an area. A map that has that is only “mildly useful”. Some places there is a specific camp site that has a marker and sometimes not. Apparently from cedahm post, those might not be marked on the map.
Like I said, the USFS is understaffed. Even pre-DOGE a lot of clearing is done by citizen groups. In wilderness areas the outfitters are doing the clearing…by hand. You can image how thrilled they would be about that layer.
2rocky
Well-known member
It's really pretty simple...Most outfitters if they don't operate where you are, will tell you who does. USFS is not an information broker...just a regulator...
1. Colorado Outfitters Association — probably the best starting point for hunting
Colorado Outfitters Association — Find an Outfitter
Their directory lets you search by:
That makes it particularly useful if you're trying to identify outfitters who have established operations in a particular watershed or group of GMUs.
Colorado Parks & Wildlife — Guides & Outfitters
CPW states that Colorado hunting guides/outfitters must be registered, bonded and insured and generally need the appropriate permits for public lands.
For river operations, CPW has a separate River Outfitter License program and provides a current licensed-outfitter list.
Colorado Office of Outfitter Registration
This is the state regulatory database/agency for registered outfitters. It's useful for confirming that an outfitter you find through an association or Google is actually registered.
1. Colorado Outfitters Association — probably the best starting point for hunting
Colorado Outfitters Association — Find an Outfitter
Their directory lets you search by:
- GMU
- Region — NW, SW, NE, SE
- Game species
- BLM
- National Forest
- Private land
- Pack trips / horseback
- Overnight trips
- Wilderness camps
That makes it particularly useful if you're trying to identify outfitters who have established operations in a particular watershed or group of GMUs.
2. Colorado Parks & Wildlife — verify the license
Colorado Parks & Wildlife — Guides & Outfitters
CPW states that Colorado hunting guides/outfitters must be registered, bonded and insured and generally need the appropriate permits for public lands.
For river operations, CPW has a separate River Outfitter License program and provides a current licensed-outfitter list.
3. Colorado DORA — verify the outfitter registration
Colorado Office of Outfitter Registration
This is the state regulatory database/agency for registered outfitters. It's useful for confirming that an outfitter you find through an association or Google is actually registered.
Yeah I bet that wasn't recieved well in most instances. If I had to make an assumption though, it would be that more diy hunters end up close to outfitter camps because they simply didn't know and it looked like a good area on the map, as opposed to someone intentionally trying to move in on their camp and hunting area. If that's true then it could be beneficial to make the info known, at least when someone makes the effort to ask in person.
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