De-publicize, De-glorify and De-monetize Western State Hunting

[Deleted member 16014]

On a serious note he’s taking WYOGA to court so there’s that.

 

[----]

I bought one of each of his shirts so I can be self-righteous wherever I hunt.

I bought a Wyoming one. Pretty sure I can hunt wilderness now.

 

[Wildabeest]

For someone so opposed to media driven and glorified self-promotion, you’d think he would choose a more humble pic of himself than this to put on the “About” section of his organization’s website...

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I wonder if there's a promo code we can use...

Probably not RANDY.

 

[geetar]

Dont worry, it's on a shirt too, be sure to check it out at their store. I wonder if there's a promo code we can use...

View attachment 181066

I’ll pass

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Nation-wide, hunting is a dying tradition in the United States. Hunting's roots lie in rural areas and rural populations, and as the nation urbanizes, fewer young people will be introduced to hunting.

While rural America has been slowly dying, the interest in western state hunting has exploded - driven primarily by industry marketing and celebrity hunter self-promotion.

Maybe, though just about everything in the west has "exploded" biking/skiing/rafting it could be just part of the popularity of outside activities.

Self-promoting hunters and the hunting industry leverage social media to attract eyeballs, which they quickly monetize via subscriptions, apparel and gear sales, memberships, sponsorships, etc.

Eastern and Midwestern white tail deer hunters and non-hunting newcomers to the west are the primary target audience for the hunting industry marketing and media onslaught. The aim is to extract dollars from this target audience.

Within the hunting industry, a corrupt “circle jerk” of celebrity hunters, hunting movie producers, gear/clothing manufacturers, internet hunting service companies (gohunt.com, etc.), podcasters, and approving mainstream hunting nonprofits stroke each other daily to keep content machine producing, audience growing, and money rolling in.

Yes, this is correct. The "circle jerk" is how all marketing works in any industry. Like day 1 of an MBA they would be like here is how marketing works.

All hunting TV shows, movies, videos, podcasts and self-promoting celebrity hunters glorify western-state hunting. Hunting by its nature is a controversial activity and its glorified over-promotion will only bring unwanted attention and scrutiny from anti-hunters and non-hunters. This unwanted attention will ultimately increase political opposition to hunting in general, and western-state hunting in particular.

I reject this premise, every human alive today is alive because our ancestors hunter, exposing how food is procured may be shocking to some but it should not be hidden.

Unlike the East, Western-state hunting is dependent upon hunting being allowed on federal lands - USFS and BLM. Under current law, it only takes a department rule or a Presidential Executive Order to severely restrict, or even end, hunting on federal lands. Even though the states manage the wildlife, and hunting can be a management tool, state governments cannot dictate to the federal government how to manage activity on federal land. Specifically, federal restriction on hunting on federal land happened during the Obama administration in Alaska, and is currently being proposed by the Biden administration, again in Alaska.

This is in accurate.
All federal lands are subject to the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976

It states
"That nothing in this Act shall be construed as authorizing the Secretary concerned to require Federal permits to hunt and fish on public lands or on lands in the National Forest System and adjacent waters or as enlarging or diminishing the responsibility and authority of the States for management of fish and resident wildlife. However, the Secretary concerned may designate areas of public land and of lands in the National Forest System where, and establish periods when, no hunting or fishing will be permitted for reasons of public safety, administration, or compliance with provisions of applicable law. Except in emergencies, any regulations of the Secretary concerned relating to hunting and fishing pursuant to this section shall be put into effect only after consultation with the appropriate State fish and game department."

Essentially BLM or USFS lands can be closed in emergencies, but only after consulting the state.1

Your examples of this are misleading because 1. They take place in Alaska and 2. The are on Refuges
Unlike the lower 48 Fed lands in Alaska are subject to Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, this priorities subsistence hunting and creates a dual management of wildlife in AK. In AK unlike the lower 48 the fed does manage wildlife in tandem with the state to some extent.

Refuges, clearly you aren't familiar with Refuges or hunting anywhere outside the west. Refuges are not BLM or USFS they are a completely different designation of lands. They are always subject to different rules and regulations. Under FLPMA they are designated "closed unless open" meaning you can't hunt there unless it has been decided you can, which is opposite of BLM and USFS. It's problematic to compare the two. You can hunt in some National Parks, it would be inaccurate to say that because you can't hunt in Yellowstone the fed is coming after hunting.

Unlike the East, Western-state hunting is dependent upon hunting being allowed on federal lands - USFS and BLM.

Your citing policy on refuges, well the east coast has a ton of refuges, both proportionally and in total acreage.
New England has more Refuge land than Wyoming. I would say most East coast public land hunters have hunted a refuge, I would guess that proportionally few western hunters have. Folks in Boston care way more about what Biden does on Refuges then folks in Casper.

@SnowyMountaineer @BuzzH correct? I scouted 3 refuges for turkey's last week you been on one this month?

Hunting at its core is about seeing, not about being seen. Cameras, microphones and film crews violate this true spirit of hunting, increase hunting pressure, and bring hunting unneeded attention and scrutiny from anti-hunters and non hunters.

The earliest human art is of the hunt. One could accurately say that the hunting story is one of the most human and most enduring forms of expression.


1. @VikingsGuy fact check on the legal portion, please and thank you.

 

[corndog1]

Think I'm going over to Sunday pic of the day and try to forget I even read this.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Maybe, though just about everything in the west has "exploded" biking/skiing/rafting it could be just part of the popularity of outside activities.

Yes, this is correct. The "circle jerk" is how all marketing works in any industry. Like day 1 of an MBA they would be like here is how marketing works.


I reject this premise, every human alive today is alive because our ancestors hunter, exposing how food is procured may be shocking to some but it should not be hidden.


This is in accurate.
All federal lands are subject to the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976

It states
"That nothing in this Act shall be construed as authorizing the Secretary concerned to require Federal permits to hunt and fish on public lands or on lands in the National Forest System and adjacent waters or as enlarging or diminishing the responsibility and authority of the States for management of fish and resident wildlife. However, the Secretary concerned may designate areas of public land and of lands in the National Forest System where, and establish periods when, no hunting or fishing will be permitted for reasons of public safety, administration, or compliance with provisions of applicable law. Except in emergencies, any regulations of the Secretary concerned relating to hunting and fishing pursuant to this section shall be put into effect only after consultation with the appropriate State fish and game department."

Essentially BLM or USFS lands can be closed in emergencies, but only after consulting the state.1

Your examples of this are misleading because 1. They take place in Alaska and 2. The are on Refuges
Unlike the lower 48 Fed lands in Alaska are subject to Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, this priorities subsistence hunting and creates a dual management of wildlife in AK. In AK unlike the lower 48 the fed does manage wildlife in tandem with the state to some extent.
View attachment 181070
Refuges, clearly you aren't familiar with Refuges or hunting anywhere outside the west. Refuges are not BLM or USFS they are a completely different designation of lands. They are always subject to different rules and regulations. Under FLPMA they are designated "closed unless open" meaning you can't hunt there unless it has been decided you can, which is opposite of BLM and USFS. It's problematic to compare the two. You can hunt in some National Parks, it would be inaccurate to say that because you can't hunt in Yellowstone the fed is coming after hunting.



Your citing policy on refuges, well the east coast has a ton of refuges, both proportionally and in total acreage.
New England has more Refuge land than Wyoming. I would say most East coast public land hunters have hunted a refuge, I would guess that proportionally few western hunters have. Folks in Boston care way more about what Biden does on Refuges then folks in Casper.

@SnowyMountaineer @BuzzH correct? I scouted 3 refuges for turkey's last week you been on one this month?

View attachment 181071



The earliest human art is of the hunt. One could accurately say that the hunting story is one of the most human and most enduring forms of expression.
View attachment 181072

1. @VikingsGuy fact check on the legal portion, please and thank you.

Dork

 

[Wildabeest]

Dork

Get with the times, Ben. They are now called “socially challenged individuals”.

 

[mtnprst]

Maybe, though just about everything in the west has "exploded" biking/skiing/rafting it could be just part of the popularity of outside activities.

Yes, this is correct. The "circle jerk" is how all marketing works in any industry. Like day 1 of an MBA they would be like here is how marketing works.


I reject this premise, every human alive today is alive because our ancestors hunter, exposing how food is procured may be shocking to some but it should not be hidden.


This is in accurate.
All federal lands are subject to the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976

It states
"That nothing in this Act shall be construed as authorizing the Secretary concerned to require Federal permits to hunt and fish on public lands or on lands in the National Forest System and adjacent waters or as enlarging or diminishing the responsibility and authority of the States for management of fish and resident wildlife. However, the Secretary concerned may designate areas of public land and of lands in the National Forest System where, and establish periods when, no hunting or fishing will be permitted for reasons of public safety, administration, or compliance with provisions of applicable law. Except in emergencies, any regulations of the Secretary concerned relating to hunting and fishing pursuant to this section shall be put into effect only after consultation with the appropriate State fish and game department."

Essentially BLM or USFS lands can be closed in emergencies, but only after consulting the state.1

Your examples of this are misleading because 1. They take place in Alaska and 2. The are on Refuges
Unlike the lower 48 Fed lands in Alaska are subject to Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, this priorities subsistence hunting and creates a dual management of wildlife in AK. In AK unlike the lower 48 the fed does manage wildlife in tandem with the state to some extent.
View attachment 181070
Refuges, clearly you aren't familiar with Refuges or hunting anywhere outside the west. Refuges are not BLM or USFS they are a completely different designation of lands. They are always subject to different rules and regulations. Under FLPMA they are designated "closed unless open" meaning you can't hunt there unless it has been decided you can, which is opposite of BLM and USFS. It's problematic to compare the two. You can hunt in some National Parks, it would be inaccurate to say that because you can't hunt in Yellowstone the fed is coming after hunting.



Your citing policy on refuges, well the east coast has a ton of refuges, both proportionally and in total acreage.
New England has more Refuge land than Wyoming. I would say most East coast hunters have hunted a refuge, I would guess that proportionally few western hunters have. Folks in Boston care way more about what Biden does on Refuges then folks in Casper.

@SnowyMountaineer @BuzzH correct? I scouted 3 refuges for turkey's last week you been on one this month?

View attachment 181071



The earliest human art is of the hunt. One could accurately say that the hunting story is one of the most human enduring forms of human expression.
View attachment 181072

1. @VikingsGuy fact check on the legal portion, please and thank you.

Awesome criticism and feedback .!

Exploding activity in the West - you're absolutely accurate. We sued the USFS over MTB in Wilderness Study Areas because of their impact on wildlife and significantly increased recreation is rapidly becoming the biggest threat to wildlife populations in areas like Jackson, Bozeman, and all of Colorado. The non-hunting recreation industry (ski, MTB, hike, summer guiding/outfitting) is very powerful in many western communities, and the glorified recreation images are used by the real estate industry (agents, banks, title companies, contractors, etc.) to great marketing effect.

FPLMA - The Executive can decide what an "emergency" is - impose restrictions, and states would need to go to court to get the decision overruled. This could take years - closest recent political example I can think of is Obama's Dreamers executive order. Not the best example, - but it shows how the executive can make a change, and how long it takes the courts to react. And in the meantime, the change can gain more broad political currency - like the Dreamer's act has.

Refuges - had no idea ... which means some eastern/southern hunters could be as vulnerable to executive order as western hunters, and thus have a direct political interest in policing hunting-related social and other media.

Hunting Art? Certainly hunting media can be done tastefully, but little is. Kill shots are still filmed and broadcasts on Netflix and Amazon hunting shows - let alone YouTube. And I'm sure you've seen the gore there. If this was restricted to private hunting networks that would be one thing, but it isn't - and that's a real political problem for the future of hunting. Gore/kill shots are easy ammo for anti-hunters, and difficult to explain to non hunters. Killing and blood is a reality of hunting - but it doesn't need to be shoved in non hunter's faces. A Broadhead manufacturer's video of kill shot after kill shot demonstrating the lethality of their broadhead may be targeted to hunters who know and understand what they are looking at, but anyone can see it and without the context of a "quick kill" being more ethical, non hunters can easily watch and come away thinking hunting is about gruesome killing, and nothing more.

We're not out on a limb here in terms of taste and unnecessary killing. If we were, Idaho G&F Commissioner Blake Fischer wouldn't have been forced to resign for circulating a photo of him posing with a family of dead baboons he shot with is stick bow in 2018. This is recent and significant example.

 

[Wildabeest]

With all due respect, if non-hunters don’t want to see hunting then they don’t have to watch it. Additionally, we’ve raised an entire generation who has absolutely no concept that the food on their plate was once a living creature. Perhaps a little more understanding of that would make them appreciate it more.

I don’t disagree with many of the points of DDD, but all it seems to do is throw stones without suggesting any realistic solutions. Seems to be pretty common in today’s social media world, and you are contributing to that. What I do disagree with is your self-righteous tone in posting it. Changing your avatar to a pic of yourself weight lifting doesn’t do much to help your cause. Seems rather “circle jerk” to me.

 

[geetar]

We seem to be gifted with one of these long winded personalities with a confusing personal agenda from time to time. Last year it was @staysharp

 

[mtnprst]

I supported the DDD idea when Matt Rinella brought it forward. I think it is an interesting discussion and causes people to think about what they are doing and their motivations.

That said, I ask you to take note to what I provide below, Rob. Evidently you didn't get the point when I sent a PM. Here it is again, in more detail.

Hunt Talk is not your personal website and forum for promotion of your organization/platform. Any other person who put the organization logo as the Avatar has been asked to change it. Those who refused to quit promoting their products, services, platforms, and organization have been told that this is against forum policies agreed to.

I've edited two of your posts in the last week that had direct links to your website. I sent you a PM telling you that you are welcome here, so long as you follow the rules. I do not feel compelled to read you or tell you every part of the Terms of Use you agreed to, rather told you to abide by those Terms.

Using this forum for promotion of your organization and platforms is not within the Terms of Use. Again, I am asking you to follow those rules. If you need another reminder to what you agreed to when you signed up, pay attention to Paragraph 6 at this link related to promotion of other platforms - https://www.hunttalk.com/help/terms/

I'll save you the short read. Under prohibited activity is content

• That promotes other companies, websites, products, services, media properties, or platforms.

If you want to be here and have discussion, all points made in a decent manner are welcome, no matter how differing the opinions, no matter how critical of me and what I spent the last twenty years working on.

But, this is not your forum. Using every post and every thread to promote your organization/platform is not what is agreed to when you signed up. I've been more than tolerant of your blatant use of this forum against the rules, as you r platform is a non-profit organization. NGO's always get more leeway with me than for-profit folks who try to use the forum for something other than the personal/non-commercial use or other violations of the Terms of Use.

Yet, inspite of my requests, you continue to use this forum, one I subsidize, to complain about my efforts and lump me in with everyone/every group you are pissed at. You come to this forum, at no cost to you, seeking to reach this audience that was built with two decades of time/money, violating the Terms of Use I have pointed out to you

You complained on some threads that other forums banned you. It is almost like you have to push the limits of Terms of Use in hopes getting banned can satisfy some sort of martyr complex, justifying your crusade. If your posts and operation there were similar to how you interact here, it is no wonder you got banned.

I hope this is the last time I have to give a warning, edit a post, or send you a PM. Chime in on topics, but stop your promotion of your organization/platforms.

I'm sorry sir, missed the logo rule .... thought it better to right up front with my association of Mountain Pursuit as founder - I'm not hiding anything. Changed now.

I certainly understand it's your website. It's up to you if you allow a true free exchange of ideas or want an echo chamber. Financially, your best decision would be to ban me/us.

I got banned from rokslide for (1) defending fair chase, (2) advocating for 90/10 tag allocation in Wyoming, and (3) asking the Mule Deer Foundation not to sponsor Demming because he sold big mule deer location data and readily admitted to using planes for scouting. We published the entire back and forth - you can read it and judge for yourself.

Promoting other platforms? Not sure what this means, but in a nutshell, MP is fighting for the future of western-state hunting esp. for western-state resident hunters. Threats include the politics that come with a rapidly urbanizing US, a strong, smart, and sophisticated anti-hunting movement which is racking up victories and gaining momentum, deer, antelope, moose, and sheep populations in decline and far below population objectives, and an established network of G&F Commissioners, stockgrowers/ranchers, Outfitters, established hunting nonprofits, politicians and hunting industry who don't see the bigger concern and are benefiting financially from the current one.

You're smart. You know there's a problem.

 

[Schaaf]

New rule, @mtnprst cant start threads unless he has one more post than what he has at the time of desired posting.

gotta keep these goal posts moving.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Awesome criticism and feedback .!

Exploding activity in the West - you're absolutely accurate. We sued the USFS over MTB in Wilderness Study Areas because of their impact on wildlife and significantly increased recreation is rapidly becoming the biggest threat to wildlife populations in areas like Jackson, Bozeman, and all of Colorado. The non-hunting recreation industry (ski, MTB, hike, summer guiding/outfitting) is very powerful in many western communities, and the glorified recreation images are used by the real estate industry (agents, banks, title companies, contractors, etc.) to great marketing effect.

FPLMA - The Executive can decide what an "emergency" is - impose restrictions, and states would need to go to court to get the decision overruled. This could take years - closest recent political example I can think of is Obama's Dreamers executive order. Not the best example, - but it shows how the executive can make a change, and how long it takes the courts to react. And in the meantime, the change can gain more broad political currency - like the Dreamer's act has.

Refuges - had no idea ... which means some eastern/southern hunters could be as vulnerable to executive order as western hunters, and thus have a direct political interest in policing hunting-related social and other media.

Hunting Art? Certainly hunting media can be done tastefully, but little is. Kill shots are still filmed and broadcasts on Netflix and Amazon hunting shows - let alone YouTube. And I'm sure you've seen the gore there. If this was restricted to private hunting networks that would be one thing, but it isn't - and that's a real political problem for the future of hunting. Gore/kill shots are easy ammo for anti-hunters, and difficult to explain to non hunters. Killing and blood is a reality of hunting - but it doesn't need to be shoved in non hunter's faces. A Broadhead manufacturer's video of kill shot after kill shot demonstrating the lethality of their broadhead may be targeted to hunters who know and understand what they are looking at, but anyone can see it and without the context of a "quick kill" being more ethical, non hunters can easily watch and come away thinking hunting is about gruesome killing, and nothing more.

We're not out on a limb here in terms of taste and unnecessary killing. If we were, Idaho G&F Commissioner Blake Fischer wouldn't have been forced to resign for circulating a photo of him posing with a family of dead baboons he shot with is stick bow in 2018. This is recent and significant example.

Hey man, I did what I could to jettison your pet bill SF0094 and got this reply from one of your senators (not Hicks): "We look forward to welcoming you back to Wyoming!"

 

[mtnprst]

With all due respect, if non-hunters don’t want to see hunting then they don’t have to watch it. Additionally, we’ve raised an entire generation who has absolutely no concept that the food on their plate was once a living creature. Perhaps a little more understanding of that would make them appreciate it more.

I don’t disagree with many of the points of DDD, but all it seems to do is throw stones without suggesting any realistic solutions. Seems to be pretty common in today social media world, and you are contributing to that. What I do disagree with is your self-righteous tone in posting it. Changing your avatar to a pic or yourself weight lifting doesn’t do much to help your cause. Seems rather “circle jerk” to me.

 

[RobertD]

You're smart. You know there's a problem.

You keep saying cryptic things like you're alluding to cancel culture or free speech issues. What's the deal there?

 

[Pucky Freak]

I'm sorry sir, missed the logo rule .... thought it better to right up front with my association of Mountain Pursuit as founder - I'm not hiding anything. Changed now.

I certainly understand it's your website. It's up to you if you allow a true free exchange of ideas or want an echo chamber. Financially, your best decision would be to ban me/us.

I got banned from rokslide for (1) defending fair chase, (2) advocating for 90/10 tag allocation in Wyoming, and (3) asking the Mule Deer Foundation not to sponsor Demming because he sold big mule deer location data and readily admitted to using planes for scouting. We published the entire back and forth - you can read it and judge for yourself.

Promoting other platforms? Not sure what this means, but in a nutshell, MP is fighting for the future of western-state hunting esp. for western-state resident hunters. Threats include the politics that come with a rapidly urbanizing US, a strong, smart, and sophisticated anti-hunting movement which is racking up victories and gaining momentum, deer, antelope, moose, and sheep populations in decline and far below population objectives, and an established network of G&F Commissioners, stockgrowers/ranchers, Outfitters, established hunting nonprofits, politicians and hunting industry who don't see the bigger concern and are benefiting financially from the current one.

You're smart. You know there's a problem.

On a more serious note, it's hard to make sense of your central message(s) since you are passionately for like 18 things and passionately against like 47 things. It's like trying to listen to my 4-year-old amped up on sugar yelling about princess trivia.

I'm all for productive conversations on these topics but it might help a lot to make a coherent argument without firing off at so many perceived threats simultaneously. Not many other people's brains work like that.

 

[D_Walt]

What a load of self righteous bs. You wish the west was your own secret honey hole and you could get more tags. We get it.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

On a serious note he’s taking WYOGA to court so there’s that.

I believe it’s the Commission rather than WOGA. Looks like he has a strong case.