Corner crossing SCOTUS appeal

[golfer]

Not sure they can be?

As people in this thread have mentioned, official markers can be feet, yards, or more off of where they are supposed to be.

So over the years, technology has improved, but very few adjustments have been made to fences and markers for property boundaries.

It would take a monumental effort by the private property owners, and the government to be willing to take on that effort.

In the meantime, I'll use the best tools I have available (Onx, county maps and USGS maps) to make sure im in the right according to the law.

As a side note, state laws vary so much, it might or might not provide incentive for landowners to make sure their stuff is right.

For example, in NV, the responsibility is on the landowner to mark for no trespassing, and the requirements are very clear, and quite extensive. And its also illegal on the next statute to improperly post land.

So from what I've seen here, is the most valuable property to the landowner gets posted properly. Everything else is pretty well open.

I understand Wyoming the responsibility is on the trespasser to know where he's at.

So there are different requirements for proving each others case in each state.

That’s where going back to the intent of the deed come in. What was the original intent of the survey. Some make calls to landscape, fences, etc.

 

[mevertsen]

That’s where going back to the intent of the deed come in. What was the original intent of the survey. Some make calls to landscape, fences, etc.

That's now over my head. Lol.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I'm sure. On the flip side I can see people getting lazy with finding the actual corner and crossing wherever once they get comfortable doing it all the time. I probably wouldn't be to thrilled about that as a landowner either.

That’s why if I were a landowner, I would be finding the pins of my corners and flagging them with something that can be seen easily and wouldn’t impede someone from crossing in the exact location of the corner.

 

[Bighorner]

The physical monument in the ground is correct, Onx is the tool to get you close. The monuments are where they should be, everything else is supporting information as to where it is, 99% of the time.

Surveyors do make mistakes, just like accountants, doctors, and mailmen. But for the most part they are professionals and do professional work. They have to be part historian, part mathematician, part tech support and part hostage negotiator.

 

[Nick87]

That’s why if I were a landowner, I would be finding the pins of my corners and flagging them with something that can be seen easily and wouldn’t impede someone from crossing in the exact location of the corner.

Definitely, but you and i both know some/most aren't going to.

 

[BuzzH]

Interesting discussion.

IMO, the people playing all these "what if" and "what about" games have never crossed a corner and never will. It was interesting that when corner crossing was a gray area, not many people were doing it, but some were. The guys that weren't always claimed they would once it became the law, well, here we are and the same chickenchit's are still afraid to corner cross in spite of a favorable ruling.

I think more people need to read and understand past rulings on the UIA, in those cases, there was no crossing at corners. The ruling was much more broad and identified guys on horseback and moving livestock across private property to reach public lands.

While I'm not giving any legal advice to anyone else, I will be crossing corners if the pin is there or not using the best available information I have. I'm glad that there are lots of people that still aren't going to corner cross...will be some great hunting for those that aren't afraid to.

 

[Corn king 60]

I would not trust onX. These two particular crop fields on my farm are bordered by the trees and my property line is inside the tree line. OnX cuts right through the fields on the west end.

 

[VikingsGuy]

That’s where going back to the intent of the deed come in. What was the original intent of the survey. Some make calls to landscape, fences, etc.

Not sure "intent" of a survey or deed have any legal meaning or effect.

 

[antlerradar]

There are much better tools than 1:100k maps.

Before OnX, I ran into several hunters using a Gazetteer.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Before OnX, I ran into several hunters using a Gazetteer.

That mighta been me ... also with Forest Service/BLM travel map and compass.

 

[slatebuilder]

Interesting discussion.

IMO, the people playing all these "what if" and "what about" games have never crossed a corner and never will. It was interesting that when corner crossing was a gray area, not many people were doing it, but some were. The guys that weren't always claimed they would once it became the law, well, here we are and the same chickenchit's are still afraid to corner cross in spite of a favorable ruling.

I think more people need to read and understand past rulings on the UIA, in those cases, there was no crossing at corners. The ruling was much more broad and identified guys on horseback and moving livestock across private property to reach public lands.

While I'm not giving any legal advice to anyone else, I will be crossing corners if the pin is there or not using the best available information I have. I'm glad that there are lots of people that still aren't going to corner cross...will be some great hunting for those that aren't afraid to.

So how close to an actual corner do you personally consider a good faith effort to corner cross? If the best available information gets you within 10 yards of a corner is that ok? How about within 25 yards? 26 yards etc? Are property boundaries now expendable just because someone tried to do the best they can with the best available information?

 

[Dave N]

Just an opinion from someone with no clue about the subject, but I would THINK that using the available technology to find corners and boundaries SHOULD be considered enough effort in finding such. If landowners want to complain about errors in mapping or GPS systems, they should personally mark their boundaries and corners to eliminate those errors since corner crossing is now legal and they can't stop someone from doing so.

 

[TOGIE]

So how close to an actual corner do you personally consider a good faith effort to corner cross? If the best available information gets you within 10 yards of a corner is that ok? How about within 25 yards? 26 yards etc? Are property boundaries now expendable just because someone tried to do the best they can with the best available information?

i think, really, his point is that the UIA is more on our side than ever on this issue.

absent a corner pin, I don't feel a "reasonable person" is going to be expected to find an exact corner absent a pin and therefore using a gps tool to get you there shows that you are crossing in good faith while simultaneously it seems the UIA is in our corner.

i'll be going for it.

 

[TheBenHoyle]

Are we saying that current GPS will only get you within 10 meters of accuracy?

Back in the 90s for work I used GPS that was a full backpack with an antenna that stuck up over my head and the accuracy was within 1 meter. I was told that the only reason it wasn't more accurate was that we didn't have full access to all the military positioning satellites.

That was nearly 40 years ago and I could have sworn I heard a few years back that they had made civilian access to positioning satellites more accessible. I would think we are sub meter accuracy now.

I also feel like this is a bit of a overblowing the offense. In many places, stepping a wrong foot on someone else's property is a misdemeanor. I understand that depending on the severity of the offense, it could be prosecuted as a felony. But corner crossing in theory does not involve actually touching the land of aggrieved, provided you know exactly where the corners are.

I watch kids going to the bus stop cutting across the corner of people's lawns rather than following the sidewalk to the corner. Surely, that is a far more egregious offense, especially since they are touching the ground and it is often more than one or two steps.

Or how about when you are forced to step onto someone's lawn to go around a vehicle that is parked at the end of a driveway, blocking the sidewalk? Once again, someone is trespassing on private property, albeit due to a similar trespass of the person parking blocking the public property...

I can understand if the trespasser was coming on to your land and removing resources or trying to establish squatter's right or dumping trash, you should definitely seek legal recourse. But I don't quite see why this misdemeanor-equivalent needs to be adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

 

[Dave N]

But I don't quite see why this misdemeanor-equivalent needs to be adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

Because some people are just dicks.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Are we saying that current GPS will only get you within 10 meters of accuracy?

Back in the 90s for work I used GPS that was a full backpack with an antenna that stuck up over my head and the accuracy was within 1 meter. I was told that the only reason it wasn't more accurate was that we didn't have full access to all the military positioning satellites.

That was nearly 40 years ago and I could have sworn I heard a few years back that they had made civilian access to positioning satellites more accessible. I would think we are sub meter accuracy now.

I also feel like this is a bit of a overblowing the offense. In many places, stepping a wrong foot on someone else's property is a misdemeanor. I understand that depending on the severity of the offense, it could be prosecuted as a felony. But corner crossing in theory does not involve actually touching the land of aggrieved, provided you know exactly where the corners are.

I watch kids going to the bus stop cutting across the corner of people's lawns rather than following the sidewalk to the corner. Surely, that is a far more egregious offense, especially since they are touching the ground and it is often more than one or two steps.

Or how about when you are forced to step onto someone's lawn to go around a vehicle that is parked at the end of a driveway, blocking the sidewalk? Once again, someone is trespassing on private property, albeit due to a similar trespass of the person parking blocking the public property...

I can understand if the trespasser was coming on to your land and removing resources or trying to establish squatter's right or dumping trash, you should definitely seek legal recourse. But I don't quite see why this misdemeanor-equivalent needs to be adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

Survey equipment /= phone gps

Typ survey equipment now is well within a .10' or better in plan view. Or about 1000 times as accurate as a phone.

 

[Bighorner]

It really dosent matter how accurate your GPS is if the data OnX is using is off by 100'. I would say do you best you can and stay within your risk tolerance.

 

[elkduds]

Are we saying that current GPS will only get you within 10 meters of accuracy?

Back in the 90s for work I used GPS that was a full backpack with an antenna that stuck up over my head and the accuracy was within 1 meter. I was told that the only reason it wasn't more accurate was that we didn't have full access to all the military positioning satellites.

That was nearly 40 years ago and I could have sworn I heard a few years back that they had made civilian access to positioning satellites more accessible. I would think we are sub meter accuracy now.

I also feel like this is a bit of a overblowing the offense. In many places, stepping a wrong foot on someone else's property is a misdemeanor. I understand that depending on the severity of the offense, it could be prosecuted as a felony. But corner crossing in theory does not involve actually touching the land of aggrieved, provided you know exactly where the corners are.

I watch kids going to the bus stop cutting across the corner of people's lawns rather than following the sidewalk to the corner. Surely, that is a far more egregious offense, especially since they are touching the ground and it is often more than one or two steps.

Or how about when you are forced to step onto someone's lawn to go around a vehicle that is parked at the end of a driveway, blocking the sidewalk? Once again, someone is trespassing on private property, albeit due to a similar trespass of the person parking blocking the public property...

I can understand if the trespasser was coming on to your land and removing resources or trying to establish squatter's right or dumping trash, you should definitely seek legal recourse. But I don't quite see why this misdemeanor-equivalent needs to be adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

Survey equipment /= phone gps

Typ survey equipment now is well within a .10' or better in plan view. Or about 1000 times as accurate as a phone.

To expand on this for clarity, you can absolutely get to that accuracy with survey grade GPS equipment. The GPS your phone / ONx uses is not the same and has much lower accuracy.

 

[TheBenHoyle]

To expand on this for clarity, you can absolutely get to that accuracy with survey grade GPS equipment. The GPS your phone / ONx uses is not the same and has much lower accuracy.

I will except that as it stands currently the hardware in our phones does not perform well enough but that's not because it can't be more accurate. Our phones could tune in AM/FM radio signals, but the operating systems don't allow for that because the tech companies don't care to add that functionality. Most likely, the tech companies have decided that they don't care to provide the level of accuracy needed for OnX to work as it should.

Someone else pointed out that OnX is often wrong on top of our GPS coordinates not being precise. I also feel like this is a non-problem-problem. OnX uses platt data from municipalities wherever they can get it. Which leads me to believe that those inconsistencies exist at the municipality level. There are millions , maybe billions of individual property boundary markers across the US. Some of them are rocks, or iron pipes. Some are trees... A great deal of them were recorded before overhead photography and could possibly have moved (or been moved) on in the case of trees, they could have been removed with the stump having rotten away.

My point being that in any property line inquiry, there is bound to be some lack of clarity that will require a surveyor to doublecheck a spot and until that is complete, anyone's thoughts on the property boundary is just speculation.