Carl 9.3x62
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People are scared. And you still have to hike.
Corner crossing SCOTUS appeal
- Thread starter BuzzH
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WyoCoalMiner
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I’d rather have a Gen tag, never leave FS land and wander as I see fit than mess with hunting for corners. But that’s just me.
grizzly_
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You guys put a lot of credibility in surveys IMO. I've seen the same surveyor end up with the same corner dozens of feet apart depending on which monument he started from. Even title insurance doesn't guarantee where your property sits on the face of the earth, just that it is there.
These rural surveys can easily be even further off than urban surveys and shouldn't be put on a pedestal in my opinion.
It's one reason that surveyors will try and use old existing fences instead of finding points via metes and bounds. I can think of three projects I'm involved in right now that had survey inconsistencies, it's just part of the game.
If it were me, I'd use the best practice of crossing at GPS corners (absent existing fence corners, which are preferable) and keep moving into public land. Even if some DA thinks charges are warranted, I'll fight on reasonable doubt and the knowledge that I'm preventing additional civil claims of damages by getting back on public asap. YMMV
These rural surveys can easily be even further off than urban surveys and shouldn't be put on a pedestal in my opinion.
It's one reason that surveyors will try and use old existing fences instead of finding points via metes and bounds. I can think of three projects I'm involved in right now that had survey inconsistencies, it's just part of the game.
If it were me, I'd use the best practice of crossing at GPS corners (absent existing fence corners, which are preferable) and keep moving into public land. Even if some DA thinks charges are warranted, I'll fight on reasonable doubt and the knowledge that I'm preventing additional civil claims of damages by getting back on public asap. YMMV
It's not a real corner crossing thread until it devolves into hypotheticals, what ifs, and assumptions. Lots of which is done by folks that will never see a checkerboard corner to cross.
Cross if you want to. Don't cross if you don't want to. No one on here is going to change anyone's mind with an internet argument.
Cross if you want to. Don't cross if you don't want to. No one on here is going to change anyone's mind with an internet argument.
rideold
Well-known member
Very true. However, if a corner is marked that's where it is....regardless of where the n'th surveyor puts it in a courtroom. There is liberal dose of "Intent" added when surveys don't quite math out....and that happens more often than some would think.
antelopedundee
Well-known member
Get the latest BLM maps and carry them with you. An old hunting partner said that he was once confronted by a landowner. When he got out his map and asked is this where we are the LO stormed off mad. You have to rely on what's available and can't be expected to be your own surveyor.
There are much better tools than 1:100k maps.
antelopedundee
Well-known member
Yeah, I would expect things have improved in 40 years.
mevertsen
Well-known member
They have.
Problem is the above mentioned issues with surveys haven't been improved by the landowners and government agencies in, forever.
I hunt in areas where the "private land" has fence that is easily 100 years old. But it overlaps onto BLM. And there's land that is private, that is not fenced. Its just "there."
SAJ-99
Well-known member
I am convinced the some of the payment for the labor in putting in both pins and fences was made in moonshine and paid upfront.
Buffs35
Well-known member
First, for criminal trespass, will a county want to use its resources to try to prove such a trespass? I suppose it depends how powerful the adjacent landowner is in the county, but I am skeptical.
Second, for civil trespass, what are the damages? It reminds me of the de minimis trespass cases in mineral law. See Anadarko v. Lightning for a discussion of how a technical trespass does not always rise to a recoverable trespass. You can't prevail against a kid cutting across your lawn to his.
Second, for civil trespass, what are the damages? It reminds me of the de minimis trespass cases in mineral law. See Anadarko v. Lightning for a discussion of how a technical trespass does not always rise to a recoverable trespass. You can't prevail against a kid cutting across your lawn to his.
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
There are all kinds of legitimate reasons that fences deviate from property boundaries. I would never recommend relying on a fence as a property marker. I also know the markers on many of the public land parcels I’ve worked with are typically buried. They would have been ripped out by farm equipment long ago if they weren’t.
Onx is a great tool, but it shouldn’t be regarded as having excellent accuracy. Your consumer-grade phone GPS is only going to get you to within +/- 15 feet or so at best. The layers in OnX are cobbled together from a bunch of sources that in most cases were probably digitized in off of other layers or imagery and thus introduce even more error. It will get you close, but not close enough to know what square foot you are stepping on.
But it’s the best tool we have to make a good faith effort, and that’s what I’m curious about when it comes to a court decision. Would they agree it’s “good enough”, in absence of a visible marker on the ground?
Onx is a great tool, but it shouldn’t be regarded as having excellent accuracy. Your consumer-grade phone GPS is only going to get you to within +/- 15 feet or so at best. The layers in OnX are cobbled together from a bunch of sources that in most cases were probably digitized in off of other layers or imagery and thus introduce even more error. It will get you close, but not close enough to know what square foot you are stepping on.
But it’s the best tool we have to make a good faith effort, and that’s what I’m curious about when it comes to a court decision. Would they agree it’s “good enough”, in absence of a visible marker on the ground?
Rack Daniels
Well-known member
If we were really presumed innocent until proven guilty in America, why do MANY have to fight their charges from a jail cell? I like to say the same as you- that’s how it’s supposed to be. Still -Risky business…
How should surveys be improved?
slatebuilder
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First 2 paragraphs are spot on. More people should read and understand that.
What constitutes a good effort being good enough? Getting within 10’, 10 yards of a corner?
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
That’s exactly what I mean.
mevertsen
Well-known member
Not sure they can be?
As people in this thread have mentioned, official markers can be feet, yards, or more off of where they are supposed to be.
So over the years, technology has improved, but very few adjustments have been made to fences and markers for property boundaries.
It would take a monumental effort by the private property owners, and the government to be willing to take on that effort.
In the meantime, I'll use the best tools I have available (Onx, county maps and USGS maps) to make sure im in the right according to the law.
As a side note, state laws vary so much, it might or might not provide incentive for landowners to make sure their stuff is right.
For example, in NV, the responsibility is on the landowner to mark for no trespassing, and the requirements are very clear, and quite extensive. And its also illegal on the next statute to improperly post land.
So from what I've seen here, is the most valuable property to the landowner gets posted properly. Everything else is pretty well open.
I understand Wyoming the responsibility is on the trespasser to know where he's at.
So there are different requirements for proving each others case in each state.
Nick87
Well-known member
I'm sure. On the flip side I can see people getting lazy with finding the actual corner and crossing wherever once they get comfortable doing it all the time. I probably wouldn't be to thrilled about that as a landowner either.
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