Can't get Wilderness Soon Enough for Goshawks

[ELKCHSR]

"Old growth is not limited to the Pacific Northwest, old growth forests occur everywhere forest habitat types exist."

I don't recall saying it ever did, if your looking for a fight, you might want to start putting in some facts of what I state, not interjecting your own delusions into the mix.

"Do you really think you understand old growth when you call it a "deadzone"? Thats ridiculous, just plumb crazy talk...You wont have much luck finding a single ecologist, biologist, silviculturalist, forester, hunter, fisherman, etc. that believes old growth is a "deadzone". You're pretty much alone in that belief, and its just plain wrong"

Obviously you are mistaken again my friend, I read and re-read the initial post and found no reference to "Dead Zone".

"over Region 1"

The area I am not talking about is not Region 1, look it up on your fire maps...

"Sorry, but I just havent seen any proof that you have even a slight grasp of what old growth is."

I haven't seen any proof that you have even read past any misspelled words to find out what the truth really is. Maybe you ought to try and read the whole topic before jumping to conclusions and taking things out of context!!!

I will give you a chance again, since you so easily forgot to put in the fact that I would show you what to look for if you would only go out to the Pacific Northwest and take a look. It's not hard to see and can be shown to any one that is willing to look at the truth and not be blinded by hate and prejudices...
Yes I would even show you, the unbeliever and biggest pessimist on the board. No matter what my feelings toward you are, you have the right to know the truth....

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr didnt you say this, "The old growth forests we here about do not have diverse amounts of life under their branches. They choked out life for so long it could'nt be"

That statement alone is all the evidence I need to prove you dont know much about old growth, the life has been choked out???Really???

Also, I've spent plenty of time in old growth in Oregon, Montana, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, and Alaska.

What prejudices and hate do I have toward old-growth and what it is???

Oh, and by the way, this particular issue is about old growth in the Northern Rockies, it sounds to me like all your "experience" with old growth is limited to the Pacific Northwest. So, once again, you're yapping about old growth and challenging the knowledge of others in subjects and areas where you have limited if any experience...it makes you look ignorant.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by ELKCHSR:
Do any of you know what is actually an "Old Growth" forest. Or is your interpretations that of which the news media say's is Old Growth? Just a question!

Elkchsr,
Buzz is schooling you on this one.... Given that all of us know what Old Growth was/is, why would you challenge us on this, and what was the point?

Are you in disagreement that the Goshawk needs Old Growth, and that Elk, Moose, Salmon, etc... need Old Growth?

You have backed yourself into a situtation that makes it look like you have never been in a forest, and I know that is not true, but to what reason did you do so? What was the point you wanted to make about Old Growth?

Ten Bears saw he had made stupid statements, so he just quit the thread, but you are still posting, but could you make a point, instead of just allowing Buzz to keep embarrassing you?

 

[Ten Bears]

The Pacific Northwest old-growth forest is a conifer forest, dominated by large, old trees. In the Pacific Northwest, the most common type of old-growth ecosystem is forests dominated by Douglas-firs and western hemlocks, generally 350 to 750 years old. The youngest old-growth forests are 200 years old, and the oldest are about 1,000 years old.
- The Pacific Northwest also has old-growth forests dominated by Sitka spruce and western hemlock, along the Pacific Coast, and at higher elevations in the Cascade Mountains, true fir and hemlock old-growth forests.
Among all the forests of the world, the Pacific Northwest old-growth forest is unique because of the size and old age of its trees, the accumulations of biomass (weight and density of living organisms), and the climate, with its wet, mild winters and dry, warm summers.
- No other forest has an entire group of tree species that equals the trees in the Pacific Northwest old-growth forest for their size and long lives. Some of California's giant redwoods are bigger than the biggest Douglas-fir tree. But several species of big trees grow in the Pacific Northwest old-growth forest, not just one. In other forests, some junipers and bristlecone pines live longer. But several species of trees live for hundreds of years in the Pacific Northwest old-growth forest, not just one.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/oldgrowth.htm

You've yet to define the essential needs to "game". If you want me, a hunter, to back old growth preservation, then YOU need to show me what it's worth to hunters, NOT your personal values or agendas.

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, you're starting to sound like elkchsr now...

Old growth is vital habitat for all sorts of wildlife, thats no secret.

When I used to trap marten, fisher, bobcats, in Montana, I almost trapped exclusively for those species in old growth. I found the most marten in old growth spruce/ alpine fir bottoms, old growth lodgepole/alpine fir types. I trapped fisher in old growth cedar creek bottoms, also bobcats in the same areas. Anyone with half a brain could figure out immediately where the fur-bearers lived most of their lives, just look for the sign...I dont recall setting marten traps in clearcuts or areas with an abundance of young trees.

I also noticed that in the areas I trapped in particular the cedar bottoms, moose wintered there. I constantly saw moose utilizing the diverse plant species for food, like pacific yew, red osier dogwood, willows, alder, that typically grew in abundance under the canopy of old growth cedar. The moose were also there because the wide crowns of the trees provided bedding areas and also thermal cover.

During summer/fall months elk and deer use old growth all the time. In fact, thats primarily where I hunt them, old growth Lodgepole stands are great for elk, as are alpine fir and spruce old growth areas.

Old growth also is key for spawing habitat for all sorts of fish. The vast amounts of plant species found in old growth are a great source of plant biomass for macroinvertibrate production. A river running through old growth cottonwood galleries, for instance, produce many more macroinvertabrates (both in total species and abundance) than the same river that runs through a hayfield. The water temperature (critical for fish rearing and survival) is much lower in the shade of old growth, its actually shocking how much cooler.

If you cant see the benefits of old growth to wildlife of all kinds, I'd say you're out to lunch...

 

[Ithaca 37]

Buzz, Ten's getting his kicks again making stupid comments and watching the replies. It's impossible for someone to actually be as stupid as his posts indicate.

Thanks, though, for such a well written answer that other people might find interesting.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ithica,

I must disagree with you. (Isn't that why we have SI???) I think Elkchsr can be as stupid as his comments indicate.....

 

[ELKCHSR]

Your absolutely right to a point on your find here Buzz!!!

The forests they have studied for the last thirty years are nothing like they were when they were first being harvested, the pictures and drawings alone stand in testament of what the old growth forests of old looked like. Yes the bio diversity of today's forests are very rich in life. I have walked thru many of them in the Pacific Northwest (Western Washington, Western Oregon). The pictures I have witnessed over the years show a totally different story than what you posted. There was very little undergrowth. It has been told to me by some of the old people of one of the tribes I know of that there really wasn't much big game in most of the forests, I don't know where they got there info, I imagined it was passed down. It is also common knowledge out there that there are more deer and elk now than at any other time. Most of the Natives foods came from the surrounding waters. There were natural mechanisms in place though that did keep the diversity alive, one was called Laminated Root Rot. The pictures I saw of this (Old Growth forests taken by strapping a camera to the side of an airplain and taking pictures of the landscape some where in time when airplanes were first used), looked like very big fairy circles. The fungus basically attacks Western Hemlocks and Douglas fir, it fans out in an ever widening circle and allows other trees and plants to flourish in these areas, it is still very much present and can be found very easily if you know what to look for...
You like to come up with absolutes by stating things like tree ages, your site stated "generally 350 to 750 years old" I'm not arguing with the scientists that did the studies, I can tell you though that I cut a Douglas Fir that was over twelve hundred years old. There are also logs under covers around that are set up as information stations that are well over a thousand years old. I suppose you can say it said generally, I understand that, nothing in nature is absolute, you should understand this more than any one else on the board. I also know that most of what I have stated in that very early post, I can also show those that are really in the want to know, the challenge is, do you really want to know what can be shown to you, or will you just go by what you read, seeing that as gospel and pounded in stone fact. This requires a field trip, and as I have stated before a long time ago, you can then believe what you have read, or your lying eyes…

 

[1_pointer]

Personally, I like the idea of more wilderness. IMO, it provides that best protection that we can give to a tract of land while still allowing for recreational opportunities. Sure monument status increases the protection, but getting certain uses into the plan is much more difficult.

 

[JoseCuervo]

In a 100 years, we can undo the Wilderness designation, if we made a mistake.....


Elkchsr,
You ever gonna make a point on this? What was your interest in changing the subject to Old Growth, in light of you not knowing what Old Growth was???

 

[1_pointer]

In a 100 years, we can undo the Wilderness designation, if we made a mistake.....

Yeppers!

 

[ELKCHSR]

I don't know what you mean, I put out a challenge if you wanted to make the road trip that I would show you some of what I know by seeing it with your own lying eyes, I can post on here until the cows come home and it would make no difference. If you were actually honestly interested, I could go thru and explain it, but in reality, you are only looking for nothing more than finding things to dig at. So, I will not humor you on this one poor Gunner until you take the trip to Western Washinton and see for yourself.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Elkchsr,

The thread was about protecting the habitat and land in the Rockies for the Goshawk. And Ten Beers challenged that no game species need Old Growth, which was proven wrong.

Why would anybody be interested in Western Washington for the Goshawk, in this thread??? Try reading the topic, subject, and the posts, and you might be able keep up.....

 

[ELKCHSR]

You and Buzz were the ones that brought up this challenge!!! That is why!!! One thing if you haven't noticed, if you get into name calling or what ever you would like to call it today to stay politically correct, I will jump off topic when ever possible and keep it there...

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by ELKCHSR:
Do any of you know what is actually an "Old Growth" forest. Or is your interpretations that of which the news media say's is Old Growth? Just a question!

Well it was obvious that you didn't know what Old Growth was. You should tell Buzz thanks for the schooling you got.

But c'mon Elkchsr, tell us, are you for or against providing suitable habitat for the Goshawks in the Rockies? That is the issue, that you can't seem to address.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I didn't address it!!!
As it comes to the old growth of the area I am from, there is no way to put it on the net in a fashion one can understand, the trees and the forests will be there for your life span, so if you are after more than usless banter, let me know. No matter what any one else comes up with, you will just have to live with the fact you just can't know every thing....

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr, I dont think you read real well, I didnt post anything that I dug up on old growth. I posted what I've observed trapping, hunting, and working in old growth...I know how much you hate "collage" learnin'.

It was ten beers that posted that article, I'm really starting to think that you need a reading comprehension class or two...

Oh, and by the way, you said, "There were natural mechanisms in place though that did keep the diversity alive, one was called Laminated Root Rot. The pictures I saw of this (Old Growth forests taken by strapping a camera to the side of an airplain and taking pictures of the landscape some where in time when airplanes were first used), looked like very big fairy circles. The fungus basically attacks Western Hemlocks and Douglas fir, it fans out in an ever widening circle and allows other trees and plants to flourish in these areas, it is still very much present and can be found very easily if you know what to look for..."

Man, I'm really getting tired of your lack of knowledge on forestry, you might be able to bullshit people that: 1. dont have degrees in forestry 2. people that never set foot in the woods, but I'm not in either list,

First of all laminated root rot, does not show up in "fairy circles", every first year forestry student knows that laminated root disease kills trees very slowly throughout stands. In fact, in trees like Cedar, they can live with it for many, many, years. Thats precisely why it doesnt show up in aerial photography in classic concentric patterns...however....

Armillaria root disease is often times very easily seen on aerial photography when someone flies over "with a camera strapped to the wing" of an aircraft. The way it works is to spread from an initial infection area forming the classic "fairy ring" that you made the wild-assed claim happens with laminated root disease.

You, know, it must be getting a little embarrassing for you to keep getting your ass handed to you on these subjects. I'm pleading here, PLEASE, educate yourself before you try to explain things you have no idea about. I'd say you're sinking fast in your knowledge of oldgrowth and forest pathology...

[ 03-21-2004, 17:54: Message edited by: BuzzH ]

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey Buzz....

No matter what any one else comes up with, you will just have to live with the fact you just can't know every thing....

I'm just trying to figure out what he does know. I can't believe any person can be void of knowledge, but he keeps amazing me. I would just ask that he learn what the words he uses mean, and he stick to areas of his expertise, assuming he has any.

We now know he doesn't know what Old Growth is, knows nothing about forest health, doesn't know what Socialism is, doesn't know what the Mainstream Media is, the list just keeps going on.... and on....

And he still can't answer if Goshawks need additional habitat protection...

 

[ELKCHSR]

"You, know, it must be getting a little embarrassing for you to keep getting your ass handed to you on these subjects. I'm pleading here, PLEASE, educate yourself before you try to explain things you have no idea about. I'd say you're sinking fast in your knowledge of oldgrowth and forest pathology..."
I explained it exactly as it had been explained by certified Arborists in the area. I've seen how Laminated Root Rot spreads, starting in a localized area. I understand what it takes to stop it. As far as the last I heard, (things change) Laminated Root rot doesn't affect Western Red Ceders, that is why you can plant them around the infected area to help stave off it's spread. Foamy Sanosis (sp) does certainly affect Westen Red Ceders, and yes Armillaria (shoe string fungus) does have effects on Western Red Ceders, Hemlocks... I have seen Armillaria push itself right thru a green Western Hemlock stem, it is very stout stuff. But getting back to the Laminated Root Rot, in the pictures that were shown in school on diseases, the old pictures were portrayed along with the story. One thing I can say about all of this is that you can think any thing you want, I know what I know. I have learned a lot of these things from close and careful observation. No amount of brow beating will ever change that. I had to rape and plunder huge amounts of our natural resources for personal profit to learn these things. A lot of these things I can show you, they are not written down. And as I have stated before and will again, you can see the same things, draw your own conclusions from what I show you, believe me or your lying eyes. It doesn't really matter much to me if you do or not though. Ignorance is bliss!!!!
The funny thing with both of you is that if you can't get some one to fall into your own little ideals about what your preconcieved notions of what the world should be like, which you guy's both prove continualy to be very shallow, you have to resort to calling names and brow beating, it may stop others, but I am not fooled by the ignorance. It is so very easy to sit in your little glass houses, on your little thrones and tell every one how smart you both are, but it still doesn't prove much. I live by the philosophy of "Show Me". Not tell me some thing and I will follow along like a mindless robot!!!

 

[Oak]

I had to rape and plunder huge amounts of our natural resources for personal profit to learn these things.

That is an AWESOME statement!!! I love it!

Elkchsr, does goshawk habitat need any additional protection?

Oak