California's climate change emergency

[ibehuntin]

View attachment 155926
No commercial logging?

Your example is from a private lands forest managed for timber in Oregon and not NF lands which should be logged and thinned. Nice try tho. Read an article in The Epoch Times today. In the 1800’s California had 50 trees per acre. Today 500 trees per acre.

 

[Lasiocarpa]

Your example is from a private lands forest managed for timber in Oregon and not NF lands which should be logged and thinned. Nice try tho. Read an article in The Epoch Times today. In the 1800’s California had 50 trees per acre. Today 500 trees per acre.

I'm very familiar with whose lands they are.
You're the one that has twice stated there is no logging happening in the US. You did not specify NF lands.
Smokey the Bear has had as much to do with over stocked stands as anything else.

 

[huronmtns]

Your example is from a private lands forest managed for timber in Oregon and not NF lands which should be logged and thinned. Nice try tho. Read an article in The Epoch Times today. In the 1800’s California had 50 trees per acre. Today 500 trees per acre.

For reference: In today's world Forest Management does not use tree count.

Trees Have Optimum Stocking Densities

The measure of basal area in forestry is important for determining volume, growth, and when to harvest. Find out how to calculate and use BA.

www.thoughtco.com

You can find more information about National Forest Management in the link below. Click on the area you are discussing or of interest using the map location description near the regional map.
National Forest Logging:

Timber Sales on the National Forests

www.fs.fed.us

 

[ibehuntin]

You did not specify NF lands.
Smokey the Bear has had as much to do with over stocked stands as anything else.

Sorry but I thought we were specifically talking about public resources such as BLM and NF. Smokey the bears a cartoon so I don’t think a fictional character has anything to do with it. You guys want to nitpick this to death be my guest. I’m outta here.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Sorry but I thought we were specifically talking about public resources such as BLM and NF. Smokey the bears a cartoon so I don’t think a fictional character has anything to do with it. You guys want to nitpick this to death be my guest. I’m outta here.

Best not get all nit picky on whether or not we are destroying the planet.

 

[Sytes]

...one of the quality steps forward.

Regarding The Nature Conservancy's forestry practice - thinning, etc.

Chicken little may/may not float with its wood counterpart though the sky is falling Climate Change wing dinger California Liberal Governor loves the blame game. Hence, Californians may now believe the massive fires are the direct result of ... you guessed it, Climate Change.

FFS! haha! Maybe the brokebank California governing factors that continue shoving suburbia up the forests ass might, just might have something to do with forest fires, loss of life, and piss f-n poor forestry practice crippled by obstructionist environmental extremes.
No wonder sight unseen home sales have insta boosted my property value 150k in Montana! (Edited: phone felt my intended spelling was, "Sight on scene". Smarter than I phone haha!)

Let the Climate Change extremes scream... It's all Climate Change!

 

[BigHornRam]

I’ve never understood the “graze it” part of this repeated statement. Cows and sheep eat grass, grass isn’t what’s burning California. Timber, brush, beetle kill, etc is the cause. Or am I missing a different fact?

This one started as a 20 acre "vegetation" fire and quickly spread from there. Dried cured grass ignites easily burns hot and fast spreading to larger fuels like brush and timber.

Famed California winery destroyed as fast-moving fires take over wine country | CNN

The famed 41-year-old Chateau Boswell Winery in Napa Valley, California, was destroyed during the Glass Fire on Sunday evening, according to CNN affiliate KPIX.

www.cnn.com

 

[BigHornRam]

This real life tragedy was caused by wind and terrain driven grass fire. Grazing in the gulch was ended a year or two prior to the fire occurring, giving ample fuel to this fast running fire.

Young Men and Fire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[lastlight]

This one started as a 20 acre "vegetation" fire and quickly spread from there. Dried cured grass ignites easily burns hot and fast spreading to larger fuels like brush and timber.

Famed California winery destroyed as fast-moving fires take over wine country | CNN

The famed 41-year-old Chateau Boswell Winery in Napa Valley, California, was destroyed during the Glass Fire on Sunday evening, according to CNN affiliate KPIX.

www.cnn.com

Thanks for the insight, I can see here where if someone wanted to graze that small patch of grass it would be beneficial. And often people do bring in goats and sheep in the bay area foothills. But the national forest fires arent up in a blaze due to non grazing. Human caused or lightening combined with deadfall and dry brush...

 

[Ben Lamb]

The vast majority of grassland fires are in areas with significant grazing. Just as the majority of fires on forests are in areas that were previously logged.

We have spent 100 years building up fuels, that is true. We fight fire with great zeal when we should let it burn until it threatens homes & structures. These forests are largely fire-dependent ecosystems that we've managed to screw up significantly. The fires in CA, OR, WA are climate driven. Ignoring that ignores the ways to treat the disease we're dealing with. Longer fire seasons, drier climates, more days over certain temps all drive fire behavior more than just fuel load. We're in a perfect storm of fire suppression, climate change & bad forestry practices, yet we have the political will to only limit public involvement in forest issues and get the cut out.

We're acting like stupid children who have no idea what to do in reality, but a damned good idea in theory.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Here's a good read on this: https://www.propublica.org/article/...wN3KhdbbIAt3TJ75zM8TQRZU6tgAJQLF6yh94vyypW5ek

 

[Sytes]

These forests are largely fire-dependent ecosystems that we've managed to screw up significantly.

Agree.

 

[BigHornRam]

Here's a good read on this: https://www.propublica.org/article/...wN3KhdbbIAt3TJ75zM8TQRZU6tgAJQLF6yh94vyypW5ek

That was better journalism than I would have suspected coming from ProPublica, Ben. Surprised they dug into the "fire industrial complex" though.

A better read would be this 18 year old book. Unfortunately California and the rest of the fire dependent west has not taken the solutions brought forward by the authors seriously and now we are paying for the inaction in a major way.

Mimicking Nature's Fire: Restoring Fire-Prone Forests in the West

Buy Mimicking Nature's Fire (9781559631433): Restoring Fire-Prone Forests in the West: NHBS - Stephen F Arno and Carl E Fiedler, Island Press

www.nhbs.com

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

The vast majority of grassland fires are in areas with significant grazing. Just as the majority of fires on forests are in areas that were previously logged.

We have spent 100 years building up fuels, that is true. We fight fire with great zeal when we should let it burn until it threatens homes & structures. These forests are largely fire-dependent ecosystems that we've managed to screw up significantly. The fires in CA, OR, WA are climate driven. Ignoring that ignores the ways to treat the disease we're dealing with. Longer fire seasons, drier climates, more days over certain temps all drive fire behavior more than just fuel load. We're in a perfect storm of fire suppression, climate change & bad forestry practices, yet we have the political will to only limit public involvement in forest issues and get the cut out.

We're acting like stupid children who have no idea what to do in reality, but a damned good idea in theory.

Hopefully we can more towards more proactive fire management instead of always being reactive.

For instance, I know this is going to go over like a lead balloon, but I think we need to discuss creating a fire management loop hole in wilderness areas.

Summit county CO is a great example, just no two ways about it, the forest was decimated by pine beetles, the boundary is absurdly close to houses, essentially it can't be thinned effectively and will never be allowed to burn. Heavy equipment should be allowed to create a buffer zone and then USFS needs to be aggressive with controlled burns.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Forestry question, why aren't there/or aren't there more controlled burns during the winter?

Seems like if you knew there was going to be a big storm coming in a couple of days with 10+ inches of snow, that would be a great time to do some huge burns in very high risk areas? No?

 

[BigHornRam]

Forestry question, why aren't there/or aren't there more controlled burns during the winter?

Seems like if you knew there was going to be a big storm coming in a couple of days with 10+ inches of snow, that would be a great time to do some huge burns in very high risk areas? No?

Bad air quality from inversions make it a no go. Also dead wood doesn't burn well in winter. Fall is the best time for controlled burns.

 

[FI460]

Forestry question, why aren't there/or aren't there more controlled burns during the winter?

Seems like if you knew there was going to be a big storm coming in a couple of days with 10+ inches of snow, that would be a great time to do some huge burns in very high risk areas? No?

We have the Ashland Forest Resiliency Project here, and the Clark's Fork habitat improvement project to the north of the Rogue Valley. Both projects have done great thinning to improve the wildland- urban interface and clean up the respective watersheds.

Unfortunately, every time they try to burn it causes an uproar over smoke. I think it's just a vocal minority, but the squeeky wheel and all... You'd think they'd be willing to endure a little winter smoke if it improved the oppressive summer smoke.

 

[BigHornRam]

Hopefully we can more towards more proactive fire management instead of always being reactive.

For instance, I know this is going to go over like a lead balloon, but I think we need to discuss creating a fire management loop hole in wilderness areas.

Summit county CO is a great example, just no two ways about it, the forest was decimated by pine beetles, the boundary is absurdly close to houses, essentially it can't be thinned effectively and will never be allowed to burn. Heavy equipment should be allowed to create a buffer zone and then USFS needs to be aggressive with controlled burns.

View attachment 155959

Dumb place to build house. Hopefully the property owners take proactive fuel reduction steps around their homes and use fire resistant building products.

 

[rwc101]

Forestry question, why aren't there/or aren't there more controlled burns during the winter?

Seems like if you knew there was going to be a big storm coming in a couple of days with 10+ inches of snow, that would be a great time to do some huge burns in very high risk areas? No

I'm going to need you to go ahead fill out your TPS report before you set the forest on fire, mmmkay?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Dumb place to build house. Hopefully the property owners take proactive fuel reduction steps around their homes and use fire resistant building products.

That specific wilderness area was created after a lot of the house were built... dumb spot to designate a wilderness area. Though I think the real issue is that fires and our understanding of fire management has evolved a lot in the last 50 years.

Also not burning well... might that be a plus rather than a minus? Just asking questions... my family owned a hotel in CO and we would do a ton of fire mitigation during the fall and burn everything in Dec-Feb depending on the snow and our permit from the town.