California's climate change emergency

[Cammy]

This subject has been beat to death a hundred times or more here but wanted to share some thoughts.

Watched a you tube video last night that discussed the relationship between climate change and the recent wildfires. California's average temp is up 3 degree's over the last 50 years but that is not what is contributing to the wildfires. Putting out wildfires is contributing the the increased severity of the wildfires that do occur. Drought conditions worsen this as the "understory fuel" dries out as well as the contribution the bark beetle has made. Gov Numbnuts said that if one wants to see climate change they only need to come look at California. I have a theory about that….

The Indians that lived here 300 years ago knew that fire was good for a forest and I am sure they set their fair share of fires. Along comes the white man with his industrial might and plows the ground with machinery that burns coal and factories that emit steam and coal particulate matter into the air. Latter comes the automobile that contributes its own particulate matter to the air. Finally there is CARB. CARB sees all of this particulate matter in the air and decides to clean the air by eliminating industry, extinguishing fires and regulating auto emissions.

Having said that, My Father-In-Law grew up here and tells stories of the wet winters where it would rain for weeks on end (back in the 30’s and 40’s). Snow in the Sierra’s would be measure in feet every time it snowed and rivers and lakes were full year-round. What has changed is that we have reduced the amount of air-borne particulate matter for higher atmospheric moisture to collect on and rain to form. We have changed the climate by trying so hard to save the environment and extinguish fires.

My prediction is that given the size and duration of the fires this year has created a situation whereby there will be more particulate matter in the air this year and more rain and snow this winter. Will have to wait and see if my prognostication is correct but if it is I am going to make a fortune selling my idea to the world!

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Wind provides the oxygen.

Climate change contributes to dry and hot conditions, and could argue that it is also allowing the pine beetle to thrive which then contributes more fuel.

All the unburned deadfall is the fuel.

Pretty simple to me what needs done. We aren’t going to eliminate climate change anytime soon IMO, and even if it is reversed the fuel isn’t going anywhere until it burns.

Log it, Graze it, or watch it burn.

 

[LuketheDog]

I once had a similar theory about the dreaded 'rising sea level doomsday scenario' too, where the seas will actually hardly rise because as the ice caps melt they also displace less seawater. Then I looked it up and someone already had an equation for it, but since it's not a popular political position it gets largely ignored. I'm still waiting on the phone call from the Nobel folks though...

 

[Elkmagnet]

What has changed is that we have reduced the amount of air-borne particulate matter for higher atmospheric moisture to collect on and rain to form. We have changed the climate by trying so hard to save the environment and extinguish fires.

Do we have less air particulate than before the industrial revolution?
Do you have air particulate studies to support this theory?
What are your thoughts about oceanic temp/currents driving rain fall?

 

[Cammy]

Do we have less air particulate than before the industrial revolution? The industrial revolution began in the 1700's and carried through to the 1840's. While there is a "second" revolution in the 19th and early 20th centuries, my personal thoughts would be that we have less "particulate matter" in the air than during the time of coal (pre-scrubber days) and wood/coal fired steam engines. Consider that the United States monitors radioactive levels in the atmosphere as part of the SALT Treaty. Because of the jet stream we are able to determine former USSR nuclear testing compliance simply by watching for increases in radiation. During the original industrial revolution, the textile industry in Britain relied heavily on coal fired steam. All of the particulate matter was carried by the jet stream and fell somewhere with moisture attached. Acid rain was a major concern in the late 70's. What caused that? Again I am relying on anecdotal information passed down as "oral history" for part of my hypothesis.

Do you have air particulate studies to support this theory? Again, my hypothesis is based on oral history and is not based on scientific or evidentiary observations. Should there be an increase in rain or snow this winter in California, than it would be a basis for further research to determine what if any of my hypothesis is correct. Consider distillation as a rudimentary example of my thought on this with the difference being that with particulate matter being in the upper atmosphere, the moisture condenses on the particulate matter and falls as rain and snow. Not having invested the time to become a meteorologist or physicist so that I can determine how far inland ocean moisture travels before it cools enough to fall as precipitation, my theory is that particulate matter is heavy and will fall with less moisture collected that if the moisture was to combine in the absence of particulate matter.

What are your thoughts about oceanic temp/currents driving rain fall? We have seen multiple years where ocean currents and temperature fluctuations were supposed to have a positive effect on climatic occurrences (rain or snow) during the winter in California. Many of those "positive" effects were not seen in the frequency or amounts predicted. The increased evaporation of seawater adds moisture to the upper atmosphere which again when condensed on particulate falls as rain and or snow. So yes, I would say the ocean temp plays a critical part in the amount of moisture that crosses landfall to be deposited as rain or snow.

 

[Elkmagnet]

So, no.
No.
and yes.
I'm sorry but I get the feeling you think you figured out something that no scientist has ever thought to factor in.
I'm not a scientist but I do have YouTube situation.
Their is very likely a measured way of looking at historical particulates.
If not that might be the best place to start with your theory.
Good luck

 

[Runnin_Chupacabra]

I'm not sure how lightening factors into climate change, I'm sure others who are more intelligent do, but the vast majority of our wildfires this year were caused by lightening strikes. Some, yes were arson but an exponential amount was lightening. I remember the morning it happened, it went from hot and dry to very humid very fast. It was pretty cool to watch the lightning storms in the distance and it is something we rarely get in our area but had an unfortunate outcome.

From what I've been told, the Native Americans here used to have large annual control burns to reduce the fuel for any possible wildfires and the state is considering taking that approach locally. As to the plan in the nat'l forests . They lived here long before we did so they must know a few things in that regard.

 

[Big Slick]

Hmmmm....climate change? But does Canada have any fires?

 

[Doublecluck]

If climate change is responsible for California’s wildfires, I feel like it’s like that movie Armageddon but instead of the people tasked with saving us being the hero’s and saving the day they never left the strip club.

 

[ibehuntin]

California’s problems are all the result of bad politics and bad policies not climate. Same with Oregon and Washington states. All Democrat run btw.

 

[BearFoot]

As a kid growing up in southern cal, in the 60's, I witnessed fires burning up the mountains each year. The place gets dry. " Climate change " predictions then were toward global cooling

 

[JDH]

So, no.
No.
and yes.
I'm sorry but I get the feeling you think you figured out something that no scientist has ever thought to factor in.
I'm not a scientist but I do have YouTube situation.
Their is very likely a measured way of looking at historical particulates.
If not that might be the best place to start with your theory.
Good luck

I have had a couple of older farmers tell me that 50 years ago there was more nitrogen in the soil due to less scrubbing of emissions from power plants. In the article that I linked they took ice core samples to find how particulate matter concentrations have changed.
How Does Burning Fossil Fuels Affect the Nitrogen Cycle?

 

[Deleted member 20812]

California’s problems are all the result of bad politics and bad policies not climate. Same with Oregon and Washington states. All Democrat run btw.

I’m sure bad policies have resulted in record high temperatures, and a lower moisture vaporization point than what it was 25 years ago. That’s gotta be it....

 

[TOGIE]

like everything, forest fires are politically divisive these days. and like a lot of things, both sides are not wrong, but won't look at the whole picture

climate deniers point to fire suppression and forest mismanagement as the sole reason

tree huggers point to climate change and the climate deniers as the reason for forest fires

tree huggers refuse to log the forest, fuels build up

public policy has told us fires are bad, so we put them out, fuels build up

warmer winters are allowing pine beetles to spread

changing climate is resulting in warmer mean surface temperatures and wild swings where we have less precipitation for longer periods of time

as far as i can tell all these things are true.

any dumbass with a brain should be able to see that we've created the perfect mixture for more, bigger, longer lasting, hotter, more frequent fires. and everyone is right, and everyone is wrong because they only care about a single factor that makes the other side look bad, or stupid

YOU'RE ALL STUPID. WE'RE ALL STUPID. once we realize that we can get along. how bout that?

 

[ibehuntin]

I’m sure bad policies have resulted in record high temperatures, and a lower moisture vaporization point than what it was 25 years ago. That’s gotta be it....

Remember the spotted owl fiasco? Bad policy enacted with good intentions that destroyed the logging industries of Cali, OR & WA. That was 30 years ago and the forest bio burden has built up unabated for the most part since. Oops, sorry everyone! Turns out it wasn't logging that threatened the spotted owl but rather the barred owl was eating them. Our bad we'll try better next time; at your expense of course. The enviros got what they wanted anyway though, no more commercial logging. Now we get to buy 90% of our timber from Canada. They made out ok under NAFTA. Climate change is related to what that big shiny glowing orb 93 million miles away in space is doing. We've been in a solar minimum for about 4 years now and its wreaking havoc on our atmosphere and oceans. This one may last another 40-50 years. CO2 is a minor irritant nothing more.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

All of which has absolutely no to do with what I posted. Carry on.

 

[BuzzH]

Remember the spotted owl fiasco? Bad policy enacted with good intentions that destroyed the logging industries of Cali, OR & WA. That was 30 years ago and the forest bio burden has built up unabated for the most part since. Oops, sorry everyone! Turns out it wasn't logging that threatened the spotted owl but rather the barred owl was eating them. Our bad we'll try better next time; at your expense of course. The enviros got what they wanted anyway though, no more commercial logging. Now we get to buy 90% of our timber from Canada. They made out ok under NAFTA. Climate change is related to what that big shiny glowing orb 93 million miles away in space is doing. We've been in a solar minimum for about 4 years now and its wreaking havoc on our atmosphere and oceans. This one may last another 40-50 years. CO2 is a minor irritant nothing more.

Really? No commercial logging in the U.S...no logging in OR, WA, or CA?

Better check your pants, they're likely on fire.

 

[88man]

Sure climate change exists in California just ask the California voters

 

[Rainer]

Hmmmm....climate change? But does Canada have any fires?

Does a bear $**t in the woods?

 

[ibehuntin]

Really? No commercial logging in the U.S...no logging in OR, WA, or CA?

Better check your pants, they're likely on fire.

9 out of 10 independent logging cos were forced into bankruptcy and out of business because of the spotted owl policies. I saw it happen and what it did to the small towns across the PNW. For all intents and purposes compared to what once existed there really isn't a commercial logging industry in the US any longer. All the good old growth and clear wood that's harvested mostly goes to Asia.