Blue Lives Matter

[MTGomer]

When The Forest Service, Park Service, public schools, USPS etc etc suck at what they do, the answer is always the same; throw more money at them.

When the police make mistakes, they’ll be improved by having less money for training.
I don’t particularly like a lot of things about conservative positions in the current culture war, but I don’t have the ability to perform the mental gymnastic, cognitive dissonance it takes to be a leftist either.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

How so?

They are given extraordinary leeway when it comes to justifying a shooting, and the incredibly low conviction rate for police officers that have killed attests to society's historical tolerance of police force.
[/QUOTE]
And there are valid reasons for this as well.

 

[MNElkNut]

I'm sure Philandro Castille would view this statement with a high level of distaste.

I do not understand this statement. Philandro Castille, after telling the officers he had a gun in the car, disobeyed orders and reached for something. He made the officers make a decision by not following instructions. Immediately upon telling the officer that he had a gun, the officer said dont reach for it. He reached for something that the officer had no way of knowing what it was. That lead to his death. The officer was found not guilty. Pretty clear cut case of not following officer instructions.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I do not understand this statement. Philandro Castille, after telling the officers he had a gun in the car, disobeyed orders and reached for something. He made the officers make a decision by not following instructions. Immediately upon telling the officer that he had a gun, the officer said dont reach for it. He reached for something that the officer had no way of knowing what it was. That lead to his death. The officer was found not guilty. Pretty clear cut case of not following officer instructions.

Absolutely false. He was reaching for his wallet, which the officer told him to do.

 

[3855WIN]

Here’s how quick it can go bad

https://twitter.com/x/status/1298330729890242561

 

[MNElkNut]

Absolutely false. He was reaching for his wallet, which the officer told him to do.

Absolutely true. I just rewatched the video. The officer asks for license and registration. Castille tells him he has a firearm. The officer is clearly heard saying "Don't reach for it then, Dont pull it out". Castille: "I am not pulling it out". Officer (excitedly): "Don't pull it out!". Castille then pulls something out and is shot. Clearly not following directions when told three times not to pull it out. Geronimo Yanez was found not guilty, which is also completely true. Whether he was actually going for his wallet was not known by the officer at the time. His reaching for something after being told 3 times not to reach for it is why this unfortunate shooting happened.

 

[rwc101]

The Sheriff's Department here was offered free training in non-lethal weapons and turned the offer down. While I think the de-fund movement is pretty dumb, there's things money can't fix.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Absolutely true. I just rewatched the video. The officer asks for license and registration. Castille tells him he has a firearm. The officer is clearly heard saying "Don't reach for it then, Dont pull it out". Castille: "I am not pulling it out". Officer (excitedly): "Don't pull it out!". Castille then pulls something out and is shot. Clearly not following directions when told three times not to pull it out. Geronimo Yanez was found not guilty, which is also completely true. Whether he was actually going for his wallet was not known by the officer at the time. His reaching for something after being told 3 times not to reach for it is why this unfortunate shooting happened.

I'm not going to argue with you, you're free to believe whatever you want. The officer clearly told him to get his license and registration. If the officer wanted Castille's hands away from the gun, he should have told him to get his hands on the steering wheel. If in fact Castille was truly reaching for his wallet to get his license, and not reaching for the gun, then he was absolutely compliant with the officer's commands.

An acquittal is not the same as a righteous shooting. Anyone who knows the court system understands how difficult it is to get a guilty verdict in a situation like this. 27 hours of jury deliberation tells me this was not a cut and dried case in any way whatsoever.

I can think of a shooting in the town where I live (citizen on car theft) where the car owner shot the suspect and killed him, and was acquitted even though the cops investigating it couldn't believe it. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high threshold, and rightfully so.

A bad guy who is going to reach for a gun isn't very likely to tell you he has it prior to going for it.

 

[Glockster]

Here’s how quick it can go bad

https://twitter.com/x/status/1298330729890242561

That’s a pretty good example. All over what appears to be a DUI stop.
Not to monday morning quarterback to much but that video also clearly demonstrates where a rear naked choke would’ve been super useful. But most departments can’t do that anymore.

 

[LWC55]

The Sheriff's Department here was offered free training in non-lethal weapons and turned the offer down. While I think the de-fund movement is pretty dumb, there's things money can't fix.

On a similar note, the local high school football coaches are offered free football training every week by well meaning citizens of the town. They usually also politely decline the offer.

 

[rwc101]

On a similar note, the local high school football coaches are offered free football training every week by well meaning citizens of the town. They usually also politely decline the offer.

Not quite the same since the offer came from other Wyoming law enforcement.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

That’s a pretty good example. All over what appears to be a DUI stop.
Not to monday morning quarterback to much but that video also clearly demonstrates where a rear naked choke would’ve been super useful. But most departments can’t do that anymore.

Yes, it's a very good example of how quickly something like a DUI can go bad, and it's a shame what happened to these two officers. Were they killed?

In both this and the Castille video you can witness some pretty abysmal tactics.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

When the police make mistakes, they’ll be improved by having less money for training.

And that's a very fair point. I've yet to see a department that trains too much, and I've seen some where the training is a laughingstock.

 

[Glockster]

Yes, it's a very good example of how quickly something like a DUI can go bad, and it's a shame what happened to these two officers. Were they killed?

In both this and the Castille video you can witness some pretty abysmal tactics.

I think they both survived.

Just my opinion in the following points.
1.Do police officers, sheriffs deputies, and troopers need more training at de-escalation. Absolutely. Sometimes it works great. Other times you might as well be talking to a tree. De-escalation is also a two-way street. If you’re wanting to slow things down and the other party is actively increasing the intensity and pace of events de-escalation is not going to work out well for you.
2. Police need more training on defensive tactics, combatives, and hand to hand combat, whatever you wanna call it. When I went through the academy the training that we received was a joke. It was the kind of stuff that barely worked in a controlled environment with a compliant suspect. Just in case anyone is wondering how many hours of continuing education officers are required to get in defensive tactics in Kansas .....0. Weapon retention also 0. You could literally could go through the police academy, graduate, and never again in your 20 or 30 year career ever take a class on how to defend yourself only using your hands. That in my opinion is unacceptable.

3. Police have Developed a dependence on the Taser. It is much easier and cheaper to hand an officer a taser and four hours of training then it is to teach an officer a basic level of grappling or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
4. Training, training, more training, I could go on for about another five or six points but basically what it boils down to is realistic training. Less PowerPoint presentations over policies more quality, realistic, near full speed training.

The only problem with all of these points is most departments only need more time and money to complete them. And if we had either of those we probably just use the time to think of more useless policies and spend the money on new tasers or the next new gadget that supposed to help us.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

@Glockster to be clear, in the case if the two troopers I’m not suggesting de-escalation was even an option. Officer Yanez put himself in a very dangerous spot and had no mental wherewithal to control the interaction.

I agree completely with your other points.

 

[Glockster]

@Glockster to be clear, in the case if the two troopers I’m not suggesting de-escalation was even an option. Officer Yanez put himself in a very dangerous spot and had no mental wherewithal to control the interaction.

I agree completely with your other points.

I understood where you were coming from.

 

[seeth07]

I think they both survived.

Just my opinion in the following points.
1.Do police officers, sheriffs deputies, and troopers need more training at de-escalation. Absolutely. Sometimes it works great. Other times you might as well be talking to a tree. De-escalation is also a two-way street. If you’re wanting to slow things down and the other party is actively increasing the intensity and pace of events de-escalation is not going to work out well for you.
2. Police need more training on defensive tactics, combatives, and hand to hand combat, whatever you wanna call it. When I went through the academy the training that we received was a joke. It was the kind of stuff that barely worked in a controlled environment with a compliant suspect. Just in case anyone is wondering how many hours of continuing education officers are required to get in defensive tactics in Kansas .....0. Weapon retention also 0. You could literally could go through the police academy graduate and never again in your 20 or 30 year career ever take a class on how to defend yourself only using your hands. That in my opinion is unacceptable.

3. Police have Developed a dependence on the Taser. It is much easier and cheaper to hand an officer a taser and four hours of training then it is to teach an officer a basic level of grappling or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
4. Training, training, more training, I could go on for about another five or six points but basically what it boils down to is realistic training. Less PowerPoint presentations over policies more quality, realistic, near full speed training.

The only problem with all of these points is most departments only need more time and money to complete them. And if we had either of those we probably just use the time to think of more useless policies and spend the money on new tasers or the next new gadget that supposed to help us.

The video above really seems to prove your point. The taser clearly wasn't really working well enough to incapacitate the suspect to a point that would allow them to handcuff and restrain him. Even some pretty good punches didn't get him to stop. A good body triangle or rear naked choke - something that the officer restraining him from behind - could have easily been done to restrain the suspect.

 

[schmalts]

Let's be clear. The police came to the scene knowing the man has a criminal past including pulling a gun, domestic abuse, sexual assault. There was a warrant for his arrest. This is not the type of person you second guess will try and kill you. The police did what they were trained to do. Not a saint, not very smart, and gives a rats ass about respecting anyone. He also did not care about his children. I stand by the police 100000%

Wisconsin Circuit Court Access

wcca.wicourts.gov

UPDATE: K9 Dozer Helps Subdue Man Who Pulled Gun at Bar | Racine County Eye

UPDATE 8/26/2020: Please note, court officials told the Racine County Eye that Mr. Blake was not convicted of any of the charges listed in this story.

racinecountyeye.com

 

[Cheesehead]

Let's be clear. The police came to the scene knowing the man has a criminal past including pulling a gun, domestic abuse, sexual assault. There was a warrant for his arrest. This is not the type of person you second guess will try and kill you. The police did what they were trained to do. Not a saint, not very smart, and gives a rats ass about respecting anyone. He also did not care about his children. I stand by the police 100000%

Wisconsin Circuit Court Access

wcca.wicourts.gov

UPDATE: K9 Dozer Helps Subdue Man Who Pulled Gun at Bar | Racine County Eye

UPDATE 8/26/2020: Please note, court officials told the Racine County Eye that Mr. Blake was not convicted of any of the charges listed in this story.

racinecountyeye.com

Bob has a checkered past. Bob had resisted officers and gotten away. Bob is trying to get into a vehicle. Therefore I can shoot him 7 times in the back.



Logic is currently inconclusive how this is acceptable.

 

[Marshian]

Bob has a history of assaulting officers and a current warrant for his arrest due to domestic violence. Bob is seen in video fighting with officers and forcibly resisting his current arrest. There are conflicting accounts of if he had a knife. Bob escapes from the police and heads into his car to do God knows what. Bob is shot.

Logic is cloudy up to this point what was ultimately in Bob’s possession weapons/wise. A series of multiple foolish choices by Bob lead to his being shot. Very possibly completely justified. Too soon to tell. Not too soon to riot though....

Bob has a checkered past. Bob had resisted officers and gotten away. Bob is trying to get into a vehicle. Therefore I can shoot him 7 times in the back.



Logic is currently inconclusive how this is acceptable.