Blue Lives Matter

[Europe]

All lives matter--Black, Brown, White, whatever !

But I strongly support law enforcement and military

do we have those in law enforcement and military that break the law--yes. And we need to arrest them, and they should be tried before a jury of their peers ( or a military court )

Damn it, we are throwing the baby out with the bath water and we are going to regret it. I dont want to defund them, threaten them, not serve them ( restaurants ) or hit them in the head with a bat when they are trying to remove someone off the street who would hurt us if left on the street.

There are several right here on this forum who are now or have been police officers and/or in the military . THANK YOU !

Perhaps I am just to old and things have changed or need to change and if that is the case I am receptive to new ideas.

What needs to change ? thank you

 

[MNElkNut]

One of my buddies is a police officer and was forced to respond to the looters and rioters. It is unbelievable what he had to go through. They were throwing bottles, bricks, and human urine and feces at the police! The "peaceful" protesters would be in the front and quickly move out of the way for a the violent rioter to throw something and then as soon as the thrower was done, they would step back and the peaceful rioters would close the gap and not allow the police to do anything. Despicable behavior.

Some of my buddies and I got together and decided to do something nice for him. So we bought him a top of the line, custom fishing rod/reel as he likes to fish walleyes. Should be here in the next day or two and I can't wait to give it to him.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

You can only polish a turd so much before it degrades and you have to start over. We have tried to improve our country, over and over and make it more free than any other. And we should. But this is what we have become with our enabling everyone to be what they want and have the freedom to express everything they feel. Might be good intentions, but it's having a devastating effect on our country with forcing our opinions on others. You can't have an opinion on something without an understanding that it will be in contrast with someone else and they have their opinion. In giving more kids a college education(as we should), liberals and socialist have worked toward changing our society through subversion in teaching our great kids the wrong message. Even in our public schools. War is when you impose one country's or person's will on another. It don't take an educated person to see what is happening.

Thanks @Europe for your insight. All lives do matter, and you are correct that we should hold the bad actors responsible for their actions when they don't behave appropriately. The color of ones skin should never matter or be considered. No one deserves to be abused and mistreated.

 

[3855WIN]

Good citizens don’t need policing. We’re going to have to do better as a society and meet law enforcement half way.

 

[BigHornRam]

The dialogue needs to change, and thankfully it is.

Resignation Letter — Bari Weiss

www.bariweiss.com

 

[Zach]

I've got a couple buddies from HS that are San Diego PD, 2 years out till retirement and they can't wait to make that last call and move out of CA. Ones headed to SD, well deserved retirement after working homicide for 20+ years.

I'm curious to hear the detractors side of this, there seems to be more than a few.

 

[6mm Remington]

I retired in 2017 with 33 years with the Sheriff's Office where I live. I am so thankful to be out of this and I sure feel for the folks who are still working. Thank you to them for your service and to the other folks on this site who are retired.

 

[Randi]

The dialogue needs to change, and thankfully it is.

Resignation Letter — Bari Weiss

www.bariweiss.com

and it was never reported on cnn or msnbc. The news outlets dont help. they do not report the news, AS IT HAPPENED. Instead, if what happened does not fit what they are preaching, they ignore it all together. OR, tell us what they think happened and how we should feel about it. They editorialize it instead of reporting it. IMHO.

6mm Remington ---Thank you ! and Zach, thanks to your buddies as well. I also know that Guy Minor is a member here and I thank him for his police and military service, as well as any and all others here.

Our family have men serving both in the police force and border patrol in Texas and one is anxiously waiting to retire and the other one is looking at a different profession.

However: they both tell us that the other side of the coin does exist, at least in Texas. They say recently many have stopped to say thank you, ask if they can buy them a cop of coffee, etc. They tell my parents that working with and quieting a mob is not the real problem, it is the politicians with no backbone, those who move with whichever way the wind is blowing that day. They are neither afraid to do their job or expect it to be easy, but if those in charge do not support them or keep moving the goalposts, then every arrest could bring a discharge and/or a civil or criminal complaint---for following the instructions they were taught and the book they were given. Plus, when do you fire at someone holding a gun that is pointed at you. "After" he kills you ?

I am glad I am not a cop but thankful to those who choose the profession.

 

[rtraverdavis]

What needs to change ?

Better pay, more stringent conduct guidelines and requirements for being hired and remaining on the force, protection and support for officers who report bad conduct of colleagues, and lots and lots more training on conflict resolution seem like a good start to me.

 

[Brandon270]

and it was never reported on cnn or msnbc. The news outlets dont help. they do not report the news, AS IT HAPPENED. Instead, if what happened does not fit what they are preaching, they ignore it all together. OR, tell us what they think happened and how we should feel about it. They editorialize it instead of reporting it. IMHO.

6mm Remington ---Thank you ! and Zach, thanks to your buddies as well. I also know that Guy Minor is a member here and I thank him for his police and military service, as well as any and all others here.

Our family have men serving both in the police force and border patrol in Texas and one is anxiously waiting to retire and the other one is looking at a different profession.

However: they both tell us that the other side of the coin does exist, at least in Texas. They say recently many have stopped to say thank you, ask if they can buy them a cop of coffee, etc. They tell my parents that working with and quieting a mob is not the real problem, it is the politicians with no backbone, those who move with whichever way the wind is blowing that day. They are neither afraid to do their job or expect it to be easy, but if those in charge do not support them or keep moving the goalposts, then every arrest could bring a discharge and/or a civil or criminal complaint---for following the instructions they were taught and the book they were given. Plus, when do you fire at someone holding a gun that is pointed at you. "After" he kills you ?

I am glad I am not a cop but thankful to those who choose the profession.

That's what bugs me when they say the cops shot someone in the back. At first glance one might think that wasn't right, the person wasn't a "threat" but then you see the other side where someone is running while reaching behind themselves pointing a gun at the cops. There are definitely cops who do wrong and need to pay for it, but people are so jumpy to assume what happened that they don't know the full situation at the time.

 

[diamond hitch]

My long time hunting partner is in law enforcement. By the time he comes to hunt with me for two weeks, he really needs the break. Being in the bullseye for conflict daily and working constantly with people that live in a reality unlike the rest of mankind is a scary program. We see vets come back after one tour with PTSD that affects the rest of their lives and not in a good way. Imagine working with people daily that are a danger to themselves and society and not being able to do anything about it.

We certainly need to screen people initially for personality disorders that would preclude them from the profession. We likely need to systematically review how they are handling the stress of the job. They have a crappy job I don't want and couldn't ever handle. Bless them, somebody has to do it. My personality says some people need to die. Some - the sooner the better. Defunding the cops just removes the buffer between me and the chronic criminal. I really don't want to be in the position of having to make those decisions. Especially without the training. I got the gun and the backhoe but I don't think I could stand the paperwork at my age.

 

[6mm Remington]

That's what bugs me when they say the cops shot someone in the back. At first glance one might think that wasn't right, the person wasn't a "threat" but then you see the other side where someone is running while reaching behind themselves pointed a gun at the cops.

That and they have shown that someone could be pointing a firearm at you, possibly shooting at you. That subject is taking action to try and hurt you, or at least presenting themselves as attempting to do so. There is going to be some lag in reaction time for the officer when something like this happens. Action (of the suspect) always beats reaction (of the officer)! The person (suspect) can be starting to turn away and run after shooting at you, and the lag in reaction time as the officer is aiming and squeezing the trigger can be enough that the bullet strikes the subject in the side and and/or possibly the back also. It might appear that the suspect was running away and no longer posed an immediate threat, but that certainly is not the case. The officer is only trying to stop the threat that he is immediately facing, and that can also pose a serious threat of severe bodily injury or potential death to people in the area and to himself. Each situation is different and the facts and circumstances of each incident is going to be specific to that incident. The news media does not help matters when they tell a portion of a story before all of the facts and evidence is known. The media is certainly in my opinion partially to blame for a lot of this unrest in our country.
There have been several incidents over the years where the media hyped a certain narrative because it certainly increased ratings and certainly stirred the pot. Some folks start protesting and rioting only knowing a snippet of information about the incident. Later after the evidence and the facts are shown, these officers have been proven to have acted accordingly and within the scope of the law. (Not always but there have been many where officers were at first vilified but then proven innocent.) I have never seen the media at that point take any responsibility for inciting these false narratives and being held accountable for some of the damage that they do in these incidents to not only our communities but to the officers themselves.

 

[Ben Lamb]

First, I think it's important to recognize that there are valid arguments on both sides of this issue. That doesn't mean you dislike law enforcement officers or you are bigoted towards minorities. It means you can critically think about the issue whilst ignoring the ridiculous theatrics associated with both sides.

I've been listening & reading a lot on this issue. I'm not in the "defund" camp, and I'm not going to hoist a blue line flag. It's difficult, especially when you start to see threads of the same thoughts coming from both sides.

As I understand it:

1.) Yes, there is systemic racism in this nation. To me that means we have a system that inadvertently penalizes minorities at a higher rate than white people. It means sentencing for crimes can be weighted more heavily against minorities than white people.The United States of America has the highest rate of incarceration in the world. We must change that and look to other nations and courts that are seeking to change the nature of incarceration rate and focus on actual treatment. It means we need to have better training for officers in the use of deadly force, race relations and how to de-escalate situations w/o violence. It means that some schools truly need police officers there to help ensure a safe environment, but not every school does; use a social worker in schools where you can, and save the police presence for when it really is a necessity. It means we need to help build up impoverished communities through generational change rather than feel-good legislation and more hand-outs without building better outcomes relative to employment & trade-skills development. it means we have to recognize that at some level, many of us do maintain biases based on race, and that means we need to find ways to replace bias with understanding.

2.) I've seen some fantastic commentary from current LEO's who talk about the need for better training and mental health benefits for current LEO's. That includes expanded leave. I see the same requests for expanded training and mental health benefits from some in the other side. I can't imagine what it would be like to pull 100 hours a week for weeks on end dealing with the worst that America has to throw at me, and then be expected to be a well-rounded, emotionally stoic individual. At some point, we need to recognize the severe psychological toll we are placing on our police officers and ensure that they have the tools necessary to remain compassionate, thoughtful people. One of those tools most definitely is a beach with some cold beverages. Another tool is to not have the police be the point of contact for every issue, be it kids selling lemonade or someone passed out in a car. There is a real need for more social workers in America. That doesn't mean we need fewer police, it means we need more civil servants helping those in need, so the police are free to actually fight crime and enforce the laws in a meaningful manner.

3.) Turn off our TV's. The 24 hour news cycle is driven by conflict, either manufactured or real. It's no longer news, it's entertainment. Until we restore the fairness doctrine and end the current cycle we're in, we won't get beyond Us versus Them. Additive to that is ensuring that critical thinking is taught in schools. It's good to have diversity of thought in academic situations. That means ensuring that thought is well rounded and the people leaving academia can put those critical thinking skills to use, rather than listening to respond, or only selecting arguments that have your bias at heart.

 

[Panda Bear]

That and they have shown that someone could be pointing a firearm at you, possibly shooting at you. That subject is taking action to try and hurt you, or at least presenting themselves as attempting to do so. There is going to be some lag in reaction time for the officer when something like this happens. Action (of the suspect) always beats reaction (of the officer)! The person (suspect) can be starting to turn away and run after shooting at you, and the lag in reaction time as the officer is aiming and squeezing the trigger can be enough that the bullet strikes the subject in the side and and/or possibly the back also. It might appear that the suspect was running away and no longer posed an immediate threat, but that certainly is not the case. The officer is only trying to stop the threat that he is immediately facing, and that can also pose a serious threat of severe bodily injury or potential death to people in the area and to himself. Each situation is different and the facts and circumstances of each incident is going to be specific to that incident. The news media does not help matters when they tell a portion of a story before all of the facts and evidence is known. The media is certainly in my opinion partially to blame for a lot of this unrest in our country.
There have been several incidents over the years where the media hyped a certain narrative because it certainly increased ratings and certainly stirred the pot. Some folks start protesting and rioting only knowing a snippet of information about the incident. Later after the evidence and the facts are shown, these officers have been proven to have acted accordingly and within the scope of the law. (Not always but there have been many where officers were at first vilified but then proven innocent.) I have never seen the media at that point take any responsibility for inciting these false narratives and being held accountable for some of the damage that they do in these incidents to not only our communities but to the officers themselves.

THIS !

I have so much respect for the RCMP and sympathy . Your damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Has any group of people protested the police officers who have died in the last month ? Why doesn't police officers who are ambushed and killed get any support. No protests, no demonstrations , nothing--they left families that loved them behind. This one just boggles my mind how a black man can die while resisting arrest and the world goes crazy, but if a black officer is AMBUSED and killed --nothing!

I am not condoning the way the Floyd arrest was handled, but the reaction disparity is worlds apart and in both cases a black man died, but no group sympathy or reaction to the death of the officer

Would the world have gone crazy if the same thing had happen to Floyd but it was a black officer who had his knee on his neck ?

Anyway David, your post spells it out very well and from someone who has been there and done that. Thank you

Ben Lamb. Very well thought out response. All three points make sense.

 

[geetar]

I retired in 2017 with 33 years with the Sheriff's Office where I live. I am so thankful to be out of this and I sure feel for the folks who are still working. Thank you to them for your service and to the other folks on this site who are retired.

Thank you for your service.

 

[LostinOregon1]

Better pay, more stringent conduct guidelines and requirements for being hired and remaining on the force, protection and support for officers who report bad conduct of colleagues, and lots and lots more training on conflict resolution seem like a good start to me.

So tell me what you know about the guidelines for hiring? what do you think they need to do in hiring that they don't do now. Why do you think officers are hiding officers bad conduct, tell me about those examples? and how much training on conflict resolution do police officers receive now and what should it be increased to? Everyone is an expert, i would like to hear what exactly what you personally know about these topics. You are just watching videos of what you see on you-tube and television that fit a narrative. Are there bad cops, yes there are. How many officers are decertified every year for bad conduct? sounds like none if you listen to the experts. Please help me understand since everyone knows exactly what is going on. Do yourself a favor and go ahead and google use of force statistics in the last couple years. You will find that there is a false narrative out there that is driving a political agenda.

Rich

 

[SFC B]

Here is my small bit of insight. I was an LEO (Sheriff's Deputy) for a couple of years when I was young. My Bachelor's degree is in Criminal Justice with a minor in Sociology. I wanted to be a police officer from the time one help my mother get away from my abusive stepfather. I was engaged at the time I was on the road and a couple of things became very apparent to me which made me apply to grad school and move on. First, (even though I worked in a rural/wealthy suburban county) the general public, in large part, treats LEOs like pariahs. This is a MAJOR reason why cops "close ranks", even to the point of protecting some they shouldn't. I was regularly called names, continually lied to by folks of all descriptions, threatened, insulted, and taken for granted (even by those I was simply trying to assist) while working for ...2) HORRIBLE pay in one of the wealthiest counties in the state. To the point that single officers could not even afford an apartment of their own and had roommates. The comments above about "increased education, training, better pay......." are WONDERFUL ideas that simply never happen because, imagine, PEOPLE DON'T VALUE the actual service they receive from the police. For reference, that county currently has an average home price of +-300k and pays their officers an average of $40k year. 3) Additionally I had to continually listen to crap about our take home cars and how they were "free".....FFS. We were REQUIRED to park those cars in front of our homes, they could NOT be in the garage. Sooooooo, you get to make yourself and your family (if you have one) a target not just at work but 24 hours a day. In the alternative you also got to have people knocking on your door all hours demanding "assistance" for everything you can imagine. Heaven forbid that you actually drive that "free" car when not on duty either because we were also REQUIRED to stop and check EVERY vehicle on the side of the road that did not have a tag on it.....no matter the weather......no matter who was in the car with us.......NO exceptions. 4) Finally, what made it painfully obvious that it was time to go was the actual work life. On top of the above we were on rotating shifts. Meaning our schedules changed every 4 weeks (1st 4 weeks, 2nd 4 weeks 3rd 4 weeks and start over) without regard for seniority. No set schedules except for detectives, EVER. The coup de grace was, with a grad school acceptance in my pocket, I put in for leave for my wedding and honeymoon only to be told all I would get off was the day of my wedding.....period. Mind you this was only a couple of years worth and we won't talk about working in horrible weather or the actual danger of the job. I have always said that all of those who have problems with the police, believe there are some sort of "conspiracies" at work etc should have to actually WORK as an LEO (NOT a little ride along) for a month or so and see what it is like. Mouths would shut quickly, pockets would open and opinions would change immensely.

 

[Panda Bear]

Folks who are on the bubble, so to speak about law enforcement need to read all the above posts, but the ones made by SFC B, Ben Lamb, and 6mm Remington are responses from those who have been there, done that.

MNELKNUT, very nice gift.

Zach, Mnelknut and Diamond Hitch has friends in LEO and see first hand the stress they live with.

When RCMP arrive in remote areas the locals asset them in whatever way we can. They literally put their live on the line--for us! We prefer to show appreciation instead of being threatening or even indifferent toward them.

You folks had a couple who stayed on the front porch of their home while holding guns, as a threatening crowd said they were going to burn down their house. And now those folks have to pay a lawyer to represent them, while all those who were threatening them went home.

Now think of a police officer who dont know who is in a car he pulls over for breaking the law, or in a mob walking toward them, or in a home they were CALLED TO--because of domestic abuse, theft, murder,--what is behind the door they enter ? But they must make split second decisions and God help them if they are wrong or if the fellow shooting at them misses them, but they shot and kill him. They should have used tasers, talk to him more, been less threatening to him, hell maybe bought him an ice cream cone to cool him down.

Its a tough job, a stressful job, and I support them when they show up. We will feed them, guide of them, let them use our equipment, etc. They are here because someone called them and said " Help" and they came.

I know I have no voice in any discussion involving the U.S. and not trying to infer that I do. I do support the RCMP

 

[Irrelevant]

Here is my small bit of insight. I was an LEO (Sheriff's Deputy) for a couple of years when I was young. My Bachelor's degree is in Criminal Justice with a minor in Sociology. I wanted to be a police officer from the time one help my mother get away from my abusive stepfather. I was engaged at the time I was on the road and a couple of things became very apparent to me which made me apply to grad school and move on. First, (even though I worked in a rural/wealthy suburban county) the general public, in large part, treats LEOs like pariahs. This is a MAJOR reason why cops "close ranks", even to the point of protecting some they shouldn't. I was regularly called names, continually lied to by folks of all descriptions, threatened, insulted, and taken for granted (even by those I was simply trying to assist) while working for ...2) HORRIBLE pay in one of the wealthiest counties in the state. To the point that single officers could not even afford an apartment of their own and had roommates. The comments above about "increased education, training, better pay......." are WONDERFUL ideas that simply never happen because, imagine, PEOPLE DON'T VALUE the actual service they receive from the police. For reference, that county currently has an average home price of +-300k and pays their officers an average of $40k year. 3) Additionally I had to continually listen to crap about our take home cars and how they were "free".....FFS. We were REQUIRED to park those cars in front of our homes, they could NOT be in the garage. Sooooooo, you get to make yourself and your family (if you have one) a target not just at work but 24 hours a day. In the alternative you also got to have people knocking on your door all hours demanding "assistance" for everything you can imagine. Heaven forbid that you actually drive that "free" car when not on duty either because we were also REQUIRED to stop and check EVERY vehicle on the side of the road that did not have a tag on it.....no matter the weather......no matter who was in the car with us.......NO exceptions. 4) Finally, what made it painfully obvious that it was time to go was the actual work life. On top of the above we were on rotating shifts. Meaning our schedules changed every 4 weeks (1st 4 weeks, 2nd 4 weeks 3rd 4 weeks and start over) without regard for seniority. No set schedules except for detectives, EVER. The coup de grace was, with a grad school acceptance in my pocket, I put in for leave for my wedding and honeymoon only to be told all I would get off was the day of my wedding.....period. Mind you this was only a couple of years worth and we won't talk about working in horrible weather or the actual danger of the job. I have always said that all of those who have problems with the police, believe there are some sort of "conspiracies" at work etc should have to actually WORK as an LEO (NOT a little ride along) for a month or so and see what it is like. Mouths would shut quickly, pockets would open and opinions would change immensely.

That sounds pretty terrible. In general I think there are a lot of jobs where we're not able to get good people because the compensation is so low. For a long time WA teachers where in that box, most State and County jobs (I could do the same thing I'm doing now for either the State or County, but would have to take a 40-50% pay cut).

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Folks who are on the bubble, so to speak about law enforcement need to read all the above posts, but the ones made by SFC B, Ben Lamb, and 6mm Remington are responses from those who have been there, done that.

MNELKNUT, very nice gift.

Zach, Mnelknut and Diamond Hitch has friends in LEO and see first hand the stress they live with.

When RCMP arrive in remote areas the locals asset them in whatever way we can. They literally put their live on the line--for us! We prefer to show appreciation instead of being threatening or even indifferent toward them.

You folks had a couple who stayed on the front porch of their home while holding guns, as a threatening crowd said they were going to burn down their house. And now those folks have to pay a lawyer to represent them, while all those who were threatening them went home.

Now think of a police officer who dont know who is in a car he pulls over for breaking the law, or in a mob walking toward them, or in a home they were CALLED TO--because of domestic abuse, theft, murder,--what is behind the door they enter ? But they must make split second decisions and God help them if they are wrong or if the fellow shooting at them misses them, but they shot and kill him. They should have used tasers, talk to him more, been less threatening to him, hell maybe bought him an ice cream cone to cool him down.

Its a tough job, a stressful job, and I support them when they show up. We will feed them, guide of them, let them use our equipment, etc. They are here because someone called them and said " Help" and they came.

I know I have no voice in any discussion involving the U.S. and not trying to infer that I do. I do support the RCMP

Very well said,,,,,+++