BLM looses in court in South Dakota
- Thread starter tmsander
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Troy, the pictures dont work?
Hardpan, nothing grows there huh? I disagree, theres plenty of grasses, forbs, and even shrubs growing right close to that area on private land. Funny theres nothing out there for cattle to eat, yet theres plenty of cow shit all over the place? I wonder if those cows are eating the hardpan?
As far as the "sage flat", take a guess why the sage is so abundant? OVER-GRAZING perhaps?
It doesnt seem to matter to some people how much proof you provide, their minds have frozen over....
Hardpan, nothing grows there huh? I disagree, theres plenty of grasses, forbs, and even shrubs growing right close to that area on private land. Funny theres nothing out there for cattle to eat, yet theres plenty of cow shit all over the place? I wonder if those cows are eating the hardpan?
As far as the "sage flat", take a guess why the sage is so abundant? OVER-GRAZING perhaps?
It doesnt seem to matter to some people how much proof you provide, their minds have frozen over....
Oak== really depends on when during the growing seasons thingss happen. To me, once the grass is grazed down to that 6-8 inches the cows should have be moved yesterday, if the growing season is still on then they can be moved back in, if not then that peice is done for the year. Elk, normally SEEM, to prefer their grass in the shorter therefore tender than the longer stockier grass.
It takes a lot of time and resources to do things right for the long term and many want instant gratification. Someone has to pay for all this, many want to raise the rates, many want to remove them altogether, some want it to just blow over. Its past time, the BLM/USFS needs to do a better job of putting their resources, time/money toward the actual management of the land instead of spenting it on CYA and lawsuits. Really, they know what is best and will work but they are being pulled in to these bullshit extremes.
It takes a lot of time and resources to do things right for the long term and many want instant gratification. Someone has to pay for all this, many want to raise the rates, many want to remove them altogether, some want it to just blow over. Its past time, the BLM/USFS needs to do a better job of putting their resources, time/money toward the actual management of the land instead of spenting it on CYA and lawsuits. Really, they know what is best and will work but they are being pulled in to these bullshit extremes.
BuzzH
Well-known member
LA, whats the bigger bullshit extreme...poor grazing practices for 100 years or trying to fix the problems ASAP?
Usually one extreme course of action is caused by an equally extreme prior action...especially with land management issues.
Usually one extreme course of action is caused by an equally extreme prior action...especially with land management issues.
Ithaca 37
New member
"I am not diagreeing with SOME of the range being in terrible shape" Right---60% at least. I call that a lot more than "some"! And there has been some improvement in some areas, but I would bet it's been balanced out by more degradation in other areas. And riparian zones are about 90% poor condition! That's incredible!!
Here's a fairly typical report:
"The draft RMP also reported that a fish habitat inventory determined that 91% of the streams surveyed within the resource area were found to be in unsatisfactory condition, and all stream reaches along the South Fork Owyhee River were reported to be in unsatisfactory condition."
http://www.mtnvisions.com/Aurora/45collab.html
"The general condition of riparian zones in the streams ranged from poor to fair. Portions of the streams accessible to livestock were in poor condition. The area was grazed from May 15 to October 15 each year with no rest, rotation or other change in grazing strategy.
Based on comparison with the very similar and adjacent Little Jack's Creek, Big Jacks Creek currently has about half its stream channel types and riparian plant communities. As would be expected, temperature in Big Jacks Creek are about 4 degrees higher than in Little Jacks Creek. As a result, redband trout densities were significantly lower in Big Jacks Creek."
http://www.blm.gov/riparian/Profiles/nwp16.htm
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-23-2003 13:22: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Here's a fairly typical report:
"The draft RMP also reported that a fish habitat inventory determined that 91% of the streams surveyed within the resource area were found to be in unsatisfactory condition, and all stream reaches along the South Fork Owyhee River were reported to be in unsatisfactory condition."
http://www.mtnvisions.com/Aurora/45collab.html
"The general condition of riparian zones in the streams ranged from poor to fair. Portions of the streams accessible to livestock were in poor condition. The area was grazed from May 15 to October 15 each year with no rest, rotation or other change in grazing strategy.
Based on comparison with the very similar and adjacent Little Jack's Creek, Big Jacks Creek currently has about half its stream channel types and riparian plant communities. As would be expected, temperature in Big Jacks Creek are about 4 degrees higher than in Little Jacks Creek. As a result, redband trout densities were significantly lower in Big Jacks Creek."
http://www.blm.gov/riparian/Profiles/nwp16.htm
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-23-2003 13:22: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Exactly Buzz
Isn't the extreme you're fighting screaming bloody murder? Aren't you screaming nothing is changing?
What is it the 80-20 rule... 80% don't care til it directly affects them, the other 20% is equally divivded at the extremes.
Isn't the extreme you're fighting screaming bloody murder? Aren't you screaming nothing is changing?
What is it the 80-20 rule... 80% don't care til it directly affects them, the other 20% is equally divivded at the extremes.
Ithaca 37
New member
The sooner we get wildlife habitat improved the better off all hunters will be. I hear all the time how concerned the posters of HT are about the future of hunting. Well, do you think we'll have a more secure future if wildlife habitat on BLM and FS is improved to the point it has a positive effect on game animals and the hunting actually gets better? Will that help us recruit more young hunters and keep the older ones active?
You know it will, so quit fighting habitat improvement and think more about where the future of hunting lies-------on public land!
If anyone is serious about protecting our hunting heritage they'd be screaming for faster improvement of habitat, instead of making excuses about why habitat destruction should be allowed to continue.
Until I see some HT posters adapt a positive attitude about improving habitat I'll figure they're not serious about protecting our future hunting.
Right now I see a lot more concern about protecting the future of welfare ranching and ATV riding!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-23-2003 16:20: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
You know it will, so quit fighting habitat improvement and think more about where the future of hunting lies-------on public land!
If anyone is serious about protecting our hunting heritage they'd be screaming for faster improvement of habitat, instead of making excuses about why habitat destruction should be allowed to continue.
Until I see some HT posters adapt a positive attitude about improving habitat I'll figure they're not serious about protecting our future hunting.
Right now I see a lot more concern about protecting the future of welfare ranching and ATV riding!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-23-2003 16:20: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Then you must not of meant this
"so I'm just gonna be saying, "Ban them all." Just pretend they were never invented. Hunt like we did forty years ago. If you can't do that take up knitting. "
You want it to go back to the way it was forty years ago? You have an agenda.... and its not really to make the enviro better,
"so I'm just gonna be saying, "Ban them all." Just pretend they were never invented. Hunt like we did forty years ago. If you can't do that take up knitting. "
You want it to go back to the way it was forty years ago? You have an agenda.... and its not really to make the enviro better,
Ithaca 37
New member
Right, if you can't hunt the way you hunted before ATVs were invented go take up knitting. If you have to depend on an ATV for your hunting you can't be very serious about it. Handicapped hunters are the only ones who should be able to use them.
Don't bother giving me all the excuses, exceptions, hypothetical situations and loopholes. You know what I mean.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-23-2003 20:31: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Don't bother giving me all the excuses, exceptions, hypothetical situations and loopholes. You know what I mean.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-23-2003 20:31: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Ten Bears
New member
The range was in the same degraded condition forty years ago, but there were fewer people out there trying to fix it. You want to return to that as well?
There are number of reason why private land is in better shape then the public (BLM) lands. The first being that the best land was homesteaded, and kept private. Another would be that land owners work their own lands with irrigation, and other range enhancements (weed control in some instances, rest/rotation grazing for others), but don't do the same on public leases (we've been through all this before).
Grazing can do as much good for wildlife as you proclaim it does wrong. Your just standing on your
.
I didn't know ATV's were part of the grazing issue?
There are number of reason why private land is in better shape then the public (BLM) lands. The first being that the best land was homesteaded, and kept private. Another would be that land owners work their own lands with irrigation, and other range enhancements (weed control in some instances, rest/rotation grazing for others), but don't do the same on public leases (we've been through all this before).
Grazing can do as much good for wildlife as you proclaim it does wrong. Your just standing on your
I didn't know ATV's were part of the grazing issue?
Ithaca 37
New member
What I'm talking about is walking instead of riding ATVs.
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