BLM looses in court in South Dakota

[Troy Jones]

I am a little bias, concidering my family and inlaws ranch. With my job I work with ag producers and that is where my loyalty lies. I do however believe in conservation and so do most ag producers. From the sounds of it your talking more corporate ranching attitudes.

What I have heard from ranchers:

* Don't shoot the white prairie dogs we like to see them.

* Don't shoot the coyotes, they keep the fox out of here and the fox are grouse killing machines.

*Don't shoot the owls on the PD town.

* Don't shoot that buck he's a good one. I'd like to see him spread his genes a little more. Maybe next year.

* We left that water tank going for the deer.

* Badgers are good, they kill the rodents.

* Turkeys and grouse are good, they are great for eating grasshoppers.

* I don't let anyone hunt, the deer need some place that it's safe.

I have a novel idea, work with people. Don't try to contol them. Chances are you might find some common ground. Just the thoughts of a realist.

 

[1_pointer]

Good point Troy! Working with the people!! That is why the most successful conservation/ranching properties I know of are based on bringing in all with an interest for the present resources. Sure, nobody gets everything they want, but with a little give and take they are able to manage the property so that it is healthier as a whole. There are more deer, birds, and CATTLE!!!

Troy- I've have some questions: are those sayings you quoted the norm a select few of good managers? Why are the BLM lands less than "fine habitat"? Is it of limited productivity? or mismanagement?

Cattle, deer, elk, etc. are not what we need to control but ourselves.

 

[Troy Jones]

The ranchers spoke of are not a select few. But I am speaking about this particular area (Western South Dakota). The bad apples are a select few. Pertaining to BLM, that is also a different category. Here, BLM is scattered throughout The Western Dakotas. This is because this was land the homesteaders didn't want. The land is rough badland type land or hard pan were not much grows. All my family have little chunks of BLM though the property. They are 40 acres here 80 acres there. They are not fenced, just part of a pasture and are more of an incovenience that anything. When it takes 30 to 40 acres to feed a cow / calf pair to not have the BLM is not much of a problem. If you took away the BLM some 240 acres out of the inlaws 14,000 acre ranch your not making any differance to anything. Like I said, this is a different situation and not like having massive BLM tracts. It just doesn't make any sense to deplete your grass feed on BLM. If your going to lease it again, you have to graze the cattle again next year. The general pratice is half graze and move, with the exception of this year due to the drought. Half grazing leaves the grass tall enough to hold the moisture and keep the grasses productive for next years grazing and fat cattle is what it's all about.

Early in the Dakotas the bison counts were estimated in the MILLIONS and current cattle counts are nothing even close. What do you think the bison did to the land? I suppose it is all in what your private agenda is.

 

[BuzzH]

Comparing bison and cattle is ridiculous and its like comparing apples and pumpkins.

Its pretty well documented that bison migrated futher south during winter months, more than likely clean out of the Dakotas.

Bison were constantly on the move compared to cattle, which would much rather park their gooey asses in the nearest riparian area...day in and day out. Bison grazed high intensity short duration pattern...cattle high intensity long duration over most BLM leases. Add on to that 100 years of constant pounding...it aint the same as bison grazing, not by a long shot.

I did quite a bit of inventory work on BLM lands in W. South Dakota, and from what I saw most of it was in pretty rough shape. Just about like the rest of the BLM lands nation wide...running about 60% nuked by livestock. Riparian habitat was probably 80% nuked, only slightly better than the 90% in poor condition according to the BLM's own report.

The BLM lands in the Dakotas are not in good condition, and thats a fact. Species diversity is low, undesirable species are high, quite a few noxious weeds, etc. etc.

I personally dont care what private landowners do to their own lands. But on MY public lands, I would rather it be in the best possible condition...if grazing is making it anything less...then keep the livestock off.

Oh, and Troy, you can keep your fatty beef steak, I could easily live without another ounce of it. No reason to eat that shit when I got 3 elk in the freezer. Plus, if the BLM pulled all their leases tomorrow, there wouldnt be a sudden beef shortage, just import more from Argentina, Chile, and Canada or increase production on private lands.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 11:40: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Troy Jones]

Bison didn't migrate South no more than deer or antelope do now. Good try though, if that was the case the natives would have never survived our winters. Good thing the bison in Yellowstone migrate to AZ., yeah right. Bison graze, deplete, and move. The bison evolved the big head, neck and chest for getting down to the grass through the snow. Bison are not a delicate breed, and 6 inches of snow on their backs is not a problem. As far as the rest, not very American of you. I hear green peace and the sierra club are looking for recruits. You obviously read their propaganda judging from your "documented cases". Where are you originally from? I am suprized you have survived the West this long. Congrats on the freezer full of elk, I hope you didn't get that on privite land. If you got them on public, I'll see about getting you a medal for your patriotism.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 13:42: Message edited by: Troy Jones ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Troy, yeah, I'm sure greenpeace or PETA would really enjoy me in their rank and file.

As far as where I'm from orignally, Montana, third generation from there. I've somehow managed to survive, its been really tough though.

All 3 elk I killed this year were on public lands, 1 in Montana (forest service) and 2 in Wyoming (1 on FS and one on BLM). I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with anything though. I would probably be able to kill even more on public lands if they were in better condition. I have hunted on some absolutely outstanding private lands in MT, really good management. Most private land owners treat their leases much differently than their own land.

Hey as far as importing cattle, that aint my fault, call your Republican representatives, they thought Free Trade was a grand idea, you know NAFTA? I wonder how much crap you have in your house that isnt made in America? If you have one thing, go ahead and keep that medal you promised me....

I just looked up on the internet the condition of the stuff I inventoried in South Dakota. I worked mostly in the Belle Fouche area. I looked at the first 60 records of 199 that my greenpeace organization inventoried for the BLM. Of those, 20 riparian reaches were nonfunctional, which means they've been grazed to dirt basically. Another 30 or so were functioning at risk, which means they're one step from nonfunctional. The other ten were healthy. Not exactly what I would call a great track record for BLM lands.

Yet, the ranchers still think everything is A-OK, not hardly.

Oh, and you're probably right about the bison, but that still doesnt change the fact that they operate totally different from your gooey assed cattle. Or change the fact that cattle have nuked a lot of BLM, FS, and State lands.

 

[Troy Jones]

The folks at the Belle Fouche office are some of my colleges. I would like that exact site so I can discuss those figures this next week. I have a contract with them for summer of 2003. Have been at several water shed lectures the past couple months and this is the first I've heard. You must be talking outside the irrigation district. But outside the irrigation district there isn't much for water. Mainly dry bottom creeks that run in the spring. Most water has been put there from dams and dugouts. Crazy how everyone wants to hunt around here, the abundant game must be because of something else, could be imported. See pheasants all over the roads in the morning on the way to work and hope I don't run into any deer. I can tell your a Democrat by your hard left ways. Enough giving you crap. I see some of your points. I am just saying that ranchers are not the enemy here. Are you a student at Laramie? The BLM work you've done sounds like intern work.

 

[Lostagain]

Buzz? I thought I read your post about the private lands were by and large pretty good but their public leases were hammered.
I'm trying to get this straight, the very same people ....their private=good, their lease ==junk.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Lost, They take care of their own land and trash the land they lease from the gummint. Typical bunch of renters.

No one here who defends the public land ranchers has ever even tried to offer any evidence that public lands haven't been trashed by welfare ranchers. All they ever do is make excuses for it. It's a cut and dried, well documented fact we've seen so many links to verification of that I'm amazed anyone would even try to deny it.

If all those welfare ranchers love the land so much, how come 60% of all BLM is in poor condition due to overgrazing?

Answer that and maybe we can start getting realistic about this issue!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 18:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Troy, you are partially right, ranchers arent totally to blame, its also the land managers fault for derelict stewardship. But, I just wonder why ranchers fail to see the damage they do? It doesnt take a PHD to see and recognize over-grazing. Yet, 60% of BLM lands remain over-grazed and degraded? I would challenge that a majority of ranchers either dont know what the range is supposed to look like, or simply dont give a crap about it.

If you want to look up those stats for your meeting here they are: http://www.revegatation.com/Lasso/mapsearch.html

From there click on the quick map search and then on the belle fouche map.

The work I conducted was done while I was a Research Specialist at the Riparian Wetland Research Program at the University of Montana. Some of those records you'll look at I completed, some were done by BLM staff and some by my co-workers. Its all in there.

The BLM liked our inventory procedures for riparian health rating, you can look up the forms there too. We used Pfankuch procedures, Dave Rosgens classification, as well as my bosses, Paul Hansens, riparian classification. The risk rating are a derived health function from the data collected in the field. This is all probably way more info than you need, as the Belle Fouche Office undoubtedly has access to all this data...my guess is you wont be telling them anything they dont already know.

I only worked on S. Dakota BLM stuff for part of 1998 before I took over as Project Manager with the RWRP for a large contract with Ted Turner. We did quite a bit of work on two of his ranches in MT, a small part of which was the same inventory as the one completed in S. Dakota.

Oh, and I am not going to school in Laramie, I've done my time and received a degree in Resource Management from the U. of Montana.

Also, dont label me a democrat or republican, I vote on canditates and their policies not their affiliation with either party...but nice try.

A person who votes straight ticket, shouldnt even be allowed near a polling place.

 

[BuzzH]

LA, you dont think landowners treat their leases differently than their own private land?

Well explain this then.

Heres two pictures taken about a week apart in Central Montana. The first one is a picture of an antelope I shot on a state lease. The second picture is me with an antelope one of my buddies shot a week later. I'd say they were killed about 1.5 miles apart.

Mind you, the owner of the private land where my buddy killed his lope is also the lease holder for the state section where I shot mine. See a difference? I could drive down the road, and easily see right where the private and state section lines were. One side was in excellent health, one side was in a lot rougher shape. Of course there was a fence between the two ownerships.

 

[BuzzH]

LA, you want to defend that these BLM leases arent overgrazed? I dare you to. The bottom picture was last fall, right after I shot that antelope a couple ranchers moved 1000 sheep on to that BLM allotment...does it look like it needs to be grazed more?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 18:48: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Nut]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzH:

Also, dont label me a democrat or republican, I vote on canditates and their policies not their affiliation with either party...but nice try.

A person who votes straight ticket, shouldnt even be allowed near a polling place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with that 110%.

 

[Nut]

The last two pics looks like it is basically a desert

 

[Lostagain]

hey I just wanted a clarification, ok.


The defense to the range conditions, who knows....could be the rotation of the livestock, possible? hell it could be any number of things.... including drought conditions etc, hell you know as well as I that many places even in good years wouldn't support a jackrabbit that isn't packing a lunch,
the only thing we disagree on is 1)that the lease is not something that can just be taken away, the gov't set their price(on your collective behalf) and 2)if you(collectively)wish to not honor it then it should be bought out. It's a contract.
I am not diagreeing with SOME of the range being in terrible shape... never have,
its just b/c I don't agree with some of the blanket statements posted I have to wave my arms to get some to aknowledge that some range is in decent shape and improving.

 

[BuzzH]

I guess my definition of "some" is different than yours. I wouldnt call 60% of BLM lands being in poor condition, "some".

For the record, it wasnt a drought that caused that abuse in the bottom two photos. Ranges dont just get into that kind of condition from one bad year...those places have been pounded to dirt for a long time.

These cases are not isolated incidents, I can show you another dozen photos of pronghorns I've killed on BLM lands (I try not to hunt private), the range conditions are all poor.

Thats why I have a strong dislike for whats happening with public lands, its taking away from the wildlife and ultimately hunting opportunities. That sucks, big-time.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-22-2003 19:25: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

IT="Typical bunch of renters."
What's that suppose to mean? All Idaho renters are scum? So thanks for the input, I'll know not to have any dealings with any Idaho, they might be renters might be scum, better to not deal with any of them bastards with idaho plates.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Lost, If you'd ever been a landlord you'd know what I mean. I used to have rental properties and found I had to screen the tenants real carefully. I got mostly good ones after I learned a few lessons the hard way! But you don't have to take my word for it, go to some tool rental company and ask them. Most renters don't worry very much about taking care of what they rent. That's why deposits are usually required.

I've often noticed a real big difference between a rancher's private land and the BLM land he leases quite often. I really don't think most renters worry about gummint property they rent.

 

[1_pointer]

Taking cattle off can have bad effects too! There's a pretty big fight going on in the Book Cliffs section of UT. The UT DWR and TNC bought out all but one grazing permit in the area so as to allocate those AUMs to elk. Guess where the elk are? They've moved over to the one remaining lessees allotment. Why? Because they like the fresh grass that comes up after cattle have been moved through (it's been well documented with some good research).

Also, one must keep in mind the total AUMs being grazed. If you take off all livestock and the wildlife take up the slack in AUMs, the land is still not getting rested. Yes, wildlife will overgraze. Try to find some willows or aspen in Jellystone.

I bring these instances up not as a way to say that livestock grazing is great, but that blanket management practices DO NOT WORK! PERIOD! Can reducing grazing help out in some areas? Yes, without a doubt, but it is not a fix-all solution to all places.

Troy- Thanks for the answers. Do you mind if I ask another question? You said that you are contracted with the BLM. Are you working in the private sector and collecting data for them or working for another agency? I ask, because I'll be entering the real world (read as workforce) this coming summer after completing my MS in Range Ecology.

PS- Buzz, congrats on the antelope. Those things hold a certain mistique for me.

 

[Troy Jones]

The pictures don't work for me. I find those exact same senerios in the same pasture. Pertaining to the "bad land use pictures", one is hard pan and the other is sage flats. Nothing grows on hard pan and grasses don't grow worth a damn on sage flats due to the competition. Hopefully the studies are done by those who know better. I don't doubt that some lands are abused. You have it, I am tire of arguing, I am too damn old and tired. I see your young and full of piss and vinegar, you go ahead and change the world. You'll eventually end up like me. After life and politics beat sense into you, you'll become a realist. The rest is left up to those with too much time and money on their hands...Good Luck!