Mainly grazing because in my mind it’s competition for the wildlife that I like to view and hunt. Cattle always seem to be a negative when hunting to me (eating all the grass, shitting in the camp spots on national forest, running down the trail ahead of me when I’m trying to walk into an area to hunt without the game hearing me, ect.) and it kind of ticks me off when ranchers can use and abuse our public land, yet they’re able to keep us from accessing landlocked public.
BLM Grazing Overhaul
- Thread starter BigHornRam
- Start date
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Prices setting is far more complicated than that. A lot of beef ranchers cry poor-mouth after the feed-lot trucks arrive.
Really?
Have you looked at the going rate for a herder?
And for most places it's not per herd on cattle, cattle are free to roam in grazing rotations.. There are sheep herders.
But where exactly does private ground provide anything? Most leased private is just that, pasture land. And in case you haven't noticed that lightening fast migration from those with mtn permits onto private, it's because it's no where near cost efficient.
Did You know contractors have to hire subs?
Or accounting firms have to hire data entry?
Restaraunts have to hire waiters.?
So your point is the tax payers should discount the feed rate, AND provide herders?
My guess is you might want to revisit whatever point you were making
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
I mean unless you pay for it in national debt.
Not entirely true. Unless you believe those old nasty mtn cows are anything other than breed stock, until they become dogfood
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Seems like a great time to add the following to every BLM/FS lease,
"Any attempt to limit or discourage access by lawful recreational users of the leased public land, such as hikers or hunters, shall result in immediate termination of this lease and a 5 year ban on applying for any other BLM/FS lease. Violations include improper posting of "private", "no trespass" or "no hunting" signs, harassment of lawful users, herding big game off public and back on to adjoining private land, re-routing of established two tracks to make public access more difficult, locking gates or otherwise limiting lawful access."
"Any attempt to limit or discourage access by lawful recreational users of the leased public land, such as hikers or hunters, shall result in immediate termination of this lease and a 5 year ban on applying for any other BLM/FS lease. Violations include improper posting of "private", "no trespass" or "no hunting" signs, harassment of lawful users, herding big game off public and back on to adjoining private land, re-routing of established two tracks to make public access more difficult, locking gates or otherwise limiting lawful access."
theat
Well-known member
In 2014 the ranchers holding federal grazing permits constituted just 2.7% of the nation’s livestock producers. I doubt that if those ranchers had to pay grazing fees that aren't insanely subsidized by the rest of us that it would affect beef prices much at all. I doubt even more that if those grazing allotments on public land were managed with wildlife being the primary concern it would have an impact on supermarket prices either.
Carnage2011
Well-known member
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
The real question is why aren't local ranchers dumping the expensive headacheprobably because I don’t personally own cows. Anything else?
causing public grazing. For one of those 6 cheaper private leases with the free hired hand.
Furthermore how many vacant public leases are in that area?
Seen some real bad blood when one family member gets the leases,let alone the private lands. Folks here will do anything to get more gubbermint land to lease.
Hell it's free range in NM. Seen plenty of mixed cattle running on leases , pushing down private fences and eating private feed where ever they roam. It can take days to get a rancher to pick up a stray on your place. Good luck getting your damaged fences fixed,properly.
I rarely see any range riders outside of gathering times,then it's a big family/church event.
I do know many who own no land but run lots of cattle here on leased. They do gripe about the wolves eating profits tho. They ride the range in their pickups. Once in a while they will hire a cowpoke to help out. $50 a day and found...lol, does not really cover fuel to get to work or home,insurance,you maybe get lucky with a green baloney sandwich....or the feed for your horse.
Bring your own water. They cut that off when they move cattle.
Hell it's free range in NM. Seen plenty of mixed cattle running on leases , pushing down private fences and eating private feed where ever they roam. It can take days to get a rancher to pick up a stray on your place. Good luck getting your damaged fences fixed,properly.
I rarely see any range riders outside of gathering times,then it's a big family/church event.
I do know many who own no land but run lots of cattle here on leased. They do gripe about the wolves eating profits tho. They ride the range in their pickups. Once in a while they will hire a cowpoke to help out. $50 a day and found...lol, does not really cover fuel to get to work or home,insurance,you maybe get lucky with a green baloney sandwich....or the feed for your horse.
Bring your own water. They cut that off when they move cattle.
D
Deleted member 18333
Guest
Fair enough and thanks for the answer. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't had those complaints at times as well. I was asking since I hear a lot of complaints in Wyoming about public land grazing and how it impacts hunting but many of those same people have no problem with mining and O&G development on public land. I believe that this is largely due to so many of us making our living in those fields, me included, and we therefore justify the negative impacts those activities have on us by being offset by the positive impacts our jobs bring to our lives. I suspect if I was a public land rancher I would do the same in regards to cattle grazing.
I have no problem with responsible well managed private use of public land. Whether its grazing, mining, drilling, etc. I do find that of all the private uses, grazing gets the most free passes and is most likely the last activity that needs less regulation.
Carnage2011
Well-known member
A bunch of them are. Between 2 of the local allotments 4 of the shareholders have sold their permits and gone the private route in the last two years. Another one has his for sale right now as well. It’ll get bought up shortly I’m sure.
You guys apparently can’t read. I never said public land was expensive. I never once said private was cheaper. I said the numbers aren’t apples to apples. I also said that the cost of grazing on public was definitely low. I also never said the hired hand was free.
I can’t speak to the other allotments around the US, but I can tell you for a fact that between these 3 allotments they have 9 full time riders. They live in cabins and ride daily keeping cows off creeks and other water sources, fixing fence, doctoring. Now, these are big 100,000+ areas so obviously it’s different on small chunks of BLM where there may be far less cattle, I can’t speak to those instances. Also, between these 3 allotments they have sprayed over $270,000 worth of weeds in the last 3 years. The USFS hasn’t done 1/3 of that in the same amount of time.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
Here's a cool map service of Range Allotments. It represents the area boundaries of livestock grazing allotments. I think there are sub units within them, but I could be wrong. You have to zoom in to see them.
http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?url=https://apps.fs.usda.gov/arcx/rest/services/EDW/EDW_RangeAllotment_01/MapServer&source=sd
My brother worked for a large local ranch and I know of a public land grazing lease that was abandoned because the beetle kill rendered the little bit of ground that was suitable for grazing to a point where it wasn't worth it. That and maintaining fence in hundreds of thousands of acres of dead lodgepole requires a vigilance that costs too much. I have little problem with public land grazing and know it is beneficial for local rural communities and in a way subsidizes open space. I do know of some allotments in the Boulder Mountains that baffle me with their existence. The only open range within them are high meadows, which are subsequently stomped into mudpits every summer. I have not asked the FS about them, just complained on the internet.
http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?url=https://apps.fs.usda.gov/arcx/rest/services/EDW/EDW_RangeAllotment_01/MapServer&source=sd
My brother worked for a large local ranch and I know of a public land grazing lease that was abandoned because the beetle kill rendered the little bit of ground that was suitable for grazing to a point where it wasn't worth it. That and maintaining fence in hundreds of thousands of acres of dead lodgepole requires a vigilance that costs too much. I have little problem with public land grazing and know it is beneficial for local rural communities and in a way subsidizes open space. I do know of some allotments in the Boulder Mountains that baffle me with their existence. The only open range within them are high meadows, which are subsequently stomped into mudpits every summer. I have not asked the FS about them, just complained on the internet.
Arctic_Snow_Seeker
Active member
- Joined
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- 161
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
I would be very curious of the price you are seeing for those permits.
I typically see a listing that goes like this.
68,115 acres of grazing for sale $9,900,000
900sq ft house 115 deeded acres.
In short guys are selling 500k worth of private and some stupid made up amounts for the attached grazing rights. The funny part is that they are selling it for what the bank loaned them using our land as collateral. No wonder they think they own it.
Oh and we both know it will get snached up like its a deal.
Obviously. But in 90% of allotments the profit is there so lets not act like its not.
Cows are likely responsible for those weeds being there. Why is itnon the taxpayers to fix the problem?
Carnage2011
Well-known member
Elkmagnet I’ll send you a PM later. I’m headed to a meeting.
I agree with most everything you said. Cows definitely spread weeds but they aren’t the sole problem. I’d say vehicles spread far more weed seed than cows as does water. Some of the biggest weed infestations I’ve worked on were on land with zero grazing. The weed issue is complicated with a lot of different factors contributing.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
Weeds definitely get spread by other means.
We all try not to spread weeds but I am sure we all fall short.
But vehicles usually spread weeds down roads and trails that can be easier to see and treated from vehicles. Easier and cheaper than cows who are fed weeds then pushed up roads nibbling on every weed as they go pushing up the mountain then dispersing those seeds with a shot of nitrogen way off trail where they will go unnoticed for long periods of time and be difficult and expensive to treat.
It also was brought to my attention by someone who would know that unless we can see exactly where the funding for that $270k of weed spraying came from we cannot assume that it wasn't funded by the government and purchased/applied by a private party. This can be done in a number of ways. I would also assume that any private funds used would be a good tax write off?
This is a really great map, but only depicts USFS allotments. It would be really handy if it also showed BLM as well and had an identify tool.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
Here ya go. No identify tool native to the web map viewer at this link but this url could be added to an existing web map/app and identify would work. Also has labels.
