Az Ban Trail Cams?

Preserving the legacy of hunting? Its always changing! We no longer market hunt, changing. Until you show me stats that show a trail camera increases your harvest percent or actually keeps wildlife off water then I don't think it should change.
If cameras didn't help in some way they wouldn't be so prevalent among hunters and guides. If they didn't have cameras showing them where animals are frequenting they might actually have put boots on the ground and find out for themselves if there are any signs of game activity in the area.
So the argument that cameras don't help is invalid.
 
I see what you are saying, but my primary complaint about trail cams is not the advantage they give to the hunter, but the negative effects the camera has on other hunters. I like to hunt as far from civilization as possible and I enjoy being part of the natural world (what's left of it) for a few days each year. Every time I see a game camera on a water hole or along a trail, I feel violated. I know I am on my neighbor's security camera every time I step out my front door, but I don't want to feel the same way when I am in the woods.
I hear what you’re saying and agree about the presence of a camera detracting from the experience. I’ve never been blessed to hunt remote wilderness like I’m sure you have and others on this forum have. I’m sure if I was on that type of hunt and I found someone’s trail cam I wouldn’t like it either.
 
I guess I don't understand why they'd ban trail cams. It's kind of like trapping. I can't be in the woods 24/7 but my traps can. I can't be deer hunting 24/7 but my trail cams can help me pattern deer. I guess I don't see what banning them would do other than piss off a lot of people.
It would perhaps put the HUNT back in hunting.
 
If cameras didn't help in some way they wouldn't be so prevalent among hunters and guides. If they didn't have cameras showing them where animals are frequenting they might actually have put boots on the ground and find out for themselves if there are any signs of game activity in the area.
So the argument that cameras don't help is invalid.
One of the arguments against is people are in the woods all day checking cameras. There will be more people and for longer in the woods without cameras. There is no winning here and we haven't even brought up that its almost impossible to enforce.
 
These are areas with very few water sources and the water sources are known locations. Think about 15-20 cams on a water source. A trail camera itself doesn’t ruin the hunt. it’s the 20 people checking them while you are hunting. guides and hunters check cams regularly during season to get the most updated info.

That's what I'm talking about when I say I'd hunt somewhere else. 15-20 cams on a spot means there is 15-20 more people than I want to deal with on a hunt. On a hunt, it's not just the game I'm after. 😉
 
Honest question. What right?

Maybe you used that word without intending to? You have a right to free speech, a gun, a speedy trial, etc. Setting up cameras on public land is not a right that I have ever heard of.

How is it not a right? Why can't we do it because you don't like it? I do use trail cams. And I use them on public land (gasp) but I'd not say I use them to hunt really. I can count on 2 fingers the times we've shot deer we had on the cameras. I don't put them in super secret spots because there really are none where I hunt. But what I gain from them the most is, I get to see how many people pass by them in a 2 week period. I usually check them every 2 weeks in the fall. If I have people going past them a few times a day on the weekends, I hunt somewhere else.

I do however LOVE to see all the other things on the cameras. The turkeys I'd never guess would be in the middle of the northwoods in MN or WI. The wolves that pass the camera 5 min after I left or they left 3 minutes before I got there.
 
One of the arguments against is people are in the woods all day checking cameras. There will be more people and for longer in the woods without cameras. There is no winning here and we haven't even brought up that its almost impossible to enforce.

I'm all for people in the woods all day. Checking cameras or not. Get into the woods!!!
 
To put less stress on animals and to not ruin people’s hunts. Imagine trying to hunt a water source with ur AZ strip tag. The water source has 20 cameras on it and people are walking in constantly to check their cams. I think it should just be a trail camera season that ends in August. That would be the best cut and dry compromise. In my understanding this issue is mostly in the high tier units.
Well said. I have personally never had that experience but if it happened, I would be annoyed. I like the idea of a trail cam "season." End the trail cam season before hunting season begins.
 
How is it not a right?
"A privilege is a certain entitlement to immunity granted by the state or another authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis. ... By contrast, a right is an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from the moment of birth." (underlining added) From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(law)

Game cameras on public land are definitely in the first category. It is your privilege and the discussion here is whether to restrict or remove that privilege.
 
Well said. I have personally never had that experience but if it happened, I would be annoyed. I like the idea of a trail cam "season." End the trail cam season before hunting season begins.
Maybe don't hunt water if you don't like people walking in on you.
 
"A privilege is a certain entitlement to immunity granted by the state or another authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis. ... By contrast, a right is an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from the moment of birth." (underlining added) From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(law)

Game cameras on public land are definitely in the first category. It is your privilege and the discussion here is whether to restrict or remove that privilege.

fine line.
 
fine line.
I was hoping to convince you that it really is not. As Americans we have certain rights prescribed (proscribed?) in the Constitution. They are very well-defined and have become even more precisely defined via court cases over the past 200+ years, although there is no end to the arguments. These include things that we discuss frequently like the right to own property, vote, bear arms, speak freely, a speedy trial, etc (see Bill of Rights). Everything else is a privilege and can be limited or eliminated by the powers that be (local, State, and Federal legislative bodies). I feel like your high school civics class covered all of this, but maybe you played hookie to go fishing those days ;)
 
I was hoping to convince you that it really is not. As Americans we have certain rights prescribed (proscribed?) in the Constitution. They are very well-defined and have become even more precisely defined via court cases over the past 200+ years, although there is no end to the arguments. These include things that we discuss frequently like the right to own property, vote, bear arms, speak freely, a speedy trial, etc (see Bill of Rights). Everything else is a privilege and can be limited or eliminated by the powers that be (local, State, and Federal legislative bodies). I feel like your high school civics class covered all of this, but maybe you played hookie to go fishing those days ;)

Or you're not paying attention now and can see even the Bill of Rights appears to be merely a privilege as well. Bottom line is, just because something isn't like by all, doesn't mean we should take it from the rest that do.
 
Or you're not paying attention now and can see even the Bill of Rights appears to be merely a privilege as well. Bottom line is, just because something isn't like by all, doesn't mean we should take it from the rest that do.
I feel like there are some discussions that are based on opinions and there are some that cannot even get to the core of the issue because the participants do not agree on the definition of words. This discussion with you is apparently one of the latter types. Words have meaning. "Rights" and "privileges" are not interchangeable. If we cannot agree on that, then I don't think we can get to your "bottom line."
 
There are outfitters in AZ that run 500+ cameras, think about that for a moment and they share information. Gets to a point where in my opinion we are beyond fair chase. If you ever been to the Khabib area and seen how many guides/helpers there are for 1 tag, it's truly a sight to see. Would be nice to put everyone on an even ground, but I'm sure the outfitters will cry all the way to the commission due to the increased costs for running a business. We as sportsmen should really take a look when too much of something is a bad thing, these animals have no chance in many cases.
I would like to see a limit on helpers. Have them have to have a helper permit ie $ for game dept or just limit to like 3 people.
 
I feel like there are some discussions that are based on opinions and there are some that cannot even get to the core of the issue because the participants do not agree on the definition of words. This discussion with you is apparently one of the latter types. Words have meaning. "Rights" and "privileges" are not interchangeable. If we cannot agree on that, then I don't think we can get to your "bottom line."

I know they're not supposed to be interchangeable. I know the difference. Currently, the Bill of Rights seems to be merely a suggestion because some of them are actually being taken away.
 
The commission has managed to get me from pretty much on board with the ban to pretty much opposed, except for putting a season on them on artificial water in 3 units.
Their appearances on podcasts are the most rambling, disjointed bunch of nonsense I’ve ever listened to. First it was that cameras were bad for ranchers.
Now, this letter surfaces where we learn that cameras present a “significant threat to public safety”.

Whatever happened to just debating an idea honestly?
That’s quite the exaggerated dramatic statement.

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