Attack on the Feds independence

[TOGIE]

A segment of your society fanticizes about rising against tyrannical gov't overreach.

actually, all those dudes signed up for ICE recently

 

[SAJ-99]

Maybe the "WHY" question really hasnt been elaborated a whole bunch in this discussion.

I'll take a stab at it.

Debt, and the easy access to it.

Our nation's debt proves that.

Buy it now and pay it later, for everything.

Many will claim they carry no balance month to month.

The debt facts say otherwise.

If you make debt rewarding and saving cynical, people find it easier to buy things with debt, rather than save for the purchase, resulting in the inflation of goods but not wages.

Debt is both the main driver of progress overall and, when misused by individuals, an impediment to progress. Mostly the problem isn't debt itself. Debt just brings the benefit of future income to the present. I think the main driver is the human tendency to want to enjoy things now rather than wait until later.

Pretty well known experiment.

Stanford marshmallow experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[406dn]

Many will claim they carry no balance month to month.

It's been quite a few years, but we used to use a debit card, for most purchases. My wife keeps the check book and handles the bills. She told me that making certain there was enough in the checking account to cover a debit charge, was a continual hassle for her.

We switched to using a credit card, and paying off the balance each month. The kicker is you get rewarded with a rebate for using the card. Over a span of time, it adds up. I view it as another sign the world is off kilter a bit. Savings in a savings account makes meager interest, but you can get close to it by being rewarded for incurring a debt. You just have to pay it off monthly, or the pretty high credit card interest will get ahold of you.

 

[LopeHunter]

It's been quite a few years, but we used to use a debit card, for most purchases. My wife keeps the check book and handles the bills. She told me that making certain there was enough in the checking account to cover a debit charge, was a continual hassle for her.

We switched to using a credit card, and paying off the balance each month. The kicker is you get rewarded with a rebate for using the card. Over a span of time, it adds up. I view it as another sign the world is off kilter a bit. Savings in a savings account makes meager interest, but you can get close to it by being rewarded for incurring a debt. You just have to pay it off monthly, or the pretty high credit card interest will get ahold of you.

You also have significantly greater consumer protection when your credit card is compromised vs. your debit card. If your credit card is lost or stolen then someone uses it to make unauthorized charges, you are only responsible for up to $50. If unauthorized charges are made with a debit card, you could potentially be liable for the full amount if do not report within two days.

 

[Bonasababy]

Paid or unpaid?

Paying through the nose, thanks to tariffs...

From data last fall, coffee prices are up 41% since the end of Bidens term.

 

[406dn]

Paying through the nose, thanks to tariffs...

From data last fall, coffee prices are up 41% since the end of Bidens term.

So, the Union chairman in me says the break should be paid @overtime rates. That's to keep us whole.

 

[Bonasababy]

Your entire country's "personality" is based on freedom, 2A and an aversion to tyranny... A segment of your society fanticizes about rising against tyrannical gov't overreach.

Americans have been talking a big game for DECADES and when it actually happens, crickets. Americans continuously bring freedom up and right now the rest of the world is pretty disappointed.

I'm not preaching for violence, but I'm very surprised there isn't a large, bipartisan, civil disobedience or protest movement happening.

Contrary to what Trump has claimed, many thousands of MN citizens...including many who lean right politically...have been out protesting. I wish more paid attention to what's happening here, but am confident in the voters to turn things around next fall. The growing # of eyes being opened will assure that. Then comes impeachment....hopefully.

 

[Bonasababy]

Well he got the participation trophy he wanted, maybe Greenland can sleep easy tonight

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2026/01/15/machado-trump-nobel-prize/

 

[Elky Welky]

Flat taxes disproportionately affect lower-income folks @Forkyfinder, here's why:

Let's compare three families of 4. Poverty, middle class, and wealthy. Let's assume google AI is right and the average monthly cost of living for a family of this size in the US is around $8-10k a month. Let's go low-end and say it costs $8k a month, so $96,000 a year.

A family of 4 living at poverty level is making (assuming both parents work) $40k a year. Tax it at 30%, and that leaves $28k to cover cost of living. That family comes out at negative $68,000 for the year.

A family of 4 living at middle class is making $150,000 a year. Taxed at 30%, that leaves $105k to cover cost of living, so that family comes out at plus $9k for the year.

A family of 4 that is wealthy is making $1 million a year. Taxed at 30%, that family still has $700k to cover cost of living, so that family comes out at plus $604k.

This is why we have tax brackets, otherwise it is "regressive." That's also the reason sales taxes on groceries are a problem, they disproportionately affect people in poverty. It makes it impossible for anyone to crawl out.

It also goes to the disparity in mentality surrounding indigent people. For someone without money, the only purpose is to spend it. If it isn't spent it will be taken. A simple slogan that very much applies is:
For the poor: money is for spending. For the middle class: money is for saving. For the wealthy: money is for status.

Trying to apply one mentality to the other doesn't make sense then either, because people's perception of money is tied to the socio-economic status they grew up in.

As seems appropriate given yesterday's holiday, I'll leave off with a MLK jr. quote that I've been pondering lately: "It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps"

 

[406dn]

Contrary to what Trump has claimed, many thousands of MN citizens...including many who lean right politically...have been out protesting. I wish more paid attention to what's happening here, but am confident in the voters to turn things around next fall. The growing # of eyes being opened will assure that. Then comes impeachment....hopefully.

My sister lives in the Twin Cities. I was talking with her earlier today.

One thing we agreed on is that all of the video, shot by civilian protesters is powerful. It was not a good look to have an elderly Hmong man walked out of his house in his underwear, and blanket. It did not matter at the time he was a naturalized citizen.

It mattered more, seemingly, that he was not caucasian, and had an accent.

I also saw that some Oglala Sioux tribal members were detained. I thought that was kinda rich

 

[Forkyfinder]

So, the Union chairman in me says the break should be paid @overtime rates. That's to keep us whole.

Sustainable. Like most union wage rates

 

[Forkyfinder]

Flat taxes disproportionately affect lower-income folks @Forkyfinder, here's why:

Let's compare three families of 4. Poverty, middle class, and wealthy. Let's assume google AI is right and the average monthly cost of living for a family of this size in the US is around $8-10k a month. Let's go low-end and say it costs $8k a month, so $96,000 a year.

A family of 4 living at poverty level is making (assuming both parents work) $40k a year. Tax it at 30%, and that leaves $28k to cover cost of living. That family comes out at negative $68,000 for the year.

A family of 4 living at middle class is making $150,000 a year. Taxed at 30%, that leaves $105k to cover cost of living, so that family comes out at plus $9k for the year.

A family of 4 that is wealthy is making $1 million a year. Taxed at 30%, that family still has $700k to cover cost of living, so that family comes out at plus $604k.

This is why we have tax brackets, otherwise it is "regressive." That's also the reason sales taxes on groceries are a problem, they disproportionately affect people in poverty. It makes it impossible for anyone to crawl out.

It also goes to the disparity in mentality surrounding indigent people. For someone without money, the only purpose is to spend it. If it isn't spent it will be taken. A simple slogan that very much applies is:
For the poor: money is for spending. For the middle class: money is for saving. For the wealthy: money is for status.

Trying to apply one mentality to the other doesn't make sense then either, because people's perception of money is tied to the socio-economic status they grew up in.

As seems appropriate given yesterday's holiday, I'll leave off with a MLK jr. quote that I've been pondering lately: "It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps"

I was specifically referring to "social security" with the term "regressive tax"

Work through what the poor/rich family would pay/receive and you will find it's hard not to conclude that SS is a regressive tax.

As far as how/why I feel like a flat tax would best effective - there are multitude of options for those with wealth to keep it. Our tax code is quite generous if you have the resources to allocate to not getting taxed more. This is why the earlier mentioned tax rates being nominally "higher" didn't result in effectively higher taxes for the wealthy (you could write off INTEREST on a loan in that time). The regressive nature of the tax code has everything to do with write offs and not tax rates.

 

[NoWiser]

My sister lives in the Twin Cities. I was talking with her earlier today.

One thing we agreed on is that all of the video, shot by civilian protesters is powerful. It was not a good look to have an elderly Hmong man walked out of his house in his underwear, and blanket. It did not matter at the time he was a naturalized citizen.

It mattered more, seemingly, that he was not caucasian, and had an accent.

I also saw that some Oglala Sioux tribal members were detained. I thought that was kinda rich

I wish the entire country could see what’s happening here through their own eyes, instead of through the media. It’s absolutely heartbreaking. ICE isn’t after criminals. They are after minorities, regardless of their legal status. I’ve been listening to coworkers sobbing all day today because of what’s going on here.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I wish the entire country could see what’s happening here through their own eyes, instead of through the media. It’s absolutely heartbreaking. ICE isn’t after criminals. They are after minorities, regardless of their legal status. I’ve been listening to coworkers sobbing all day today because of what’s going on here.

Are there first hand accounts of trauma/angst?

I sympathize with this point of view, and wouldn't want federal law enforcement galavanting around my state bothering the populace.

Yet - I do feel that someone here illegally should be deported, especially if they have been previously convicted of serious a crime. That's an "extremist" position today. But it was universally agreed upon by both sides until about 10 years ago.

 

[mevertsen]

You also have significantly greater consumer protection when your credit card is compromised vs. your debit card. If your credit card is lost or stolen then someone uses it to make unauthorized charges, you are only responsible for up to $50. If unauthorized charges are made with a debit card, you could potentially be liable for the full amount if do not report within two days.

There is that.

And people say it.

I absolutely believe 406 does what he says he does.

He is in the great minority though of people who actually make it work.

I think about it like this...

How would the citizens think if there were no incentives beyond personal growth and bei g a steward for your family, co-workers and employees.

Nearly no tax codes. Gross reciept, low tax only, on every single dollar of income. No credits, no incentives, nothing.

No credit card incentives to get people roped into thinking it will benefit them, when in Reality the 1.23 T in US credit card debt proves the card companies are smarter and winning that game.

Eliminate the ability for everyone to be able to game the system.

Hold everyone accountable for each action they take.

I do not have an active credit card. We are about done with the one debt we have beside the house. Ive not had a single problem with mine or my wife's debit cards.

 

[Bonasababy]

I wish the entire country could see what’s happening here through their own eyes, instead of through the media. It’s absolutely heartbreaking. ICE isn’t after criminals. They are after minorities, regardless of their legal status. I’ve been listening to coworkers sobbing all day today because of what’s going on here.

The guy on the right here is the married son in law of a cousin's daughter, she and their young family seen here. He was a hard working breadwinner for the family...on his way to becoming a naturalized citizen.

Which of course...like all others well into following the legal path towards becoming a citizen..has been stopped cold under Trumps orders.

Zero past criminal history or anything of the sort.

He was grabbed from his apartment parking lot and is believed to be held in Texas now.

 

[mevertsen]

Are there first hand accounts of trauma/angst?

I sympathize with this point of view, and wouldn't want federal law enforcement galavanting around my state bothering the populace.

Yet - I do feel that someone here illegally should be deported, especially if they have been previously convicted of serious a crime. That's an "extremist" position today. But it was universally agreed upon by both sides until about 10 years ago.

I cant speak to the current situation in Minneapolis, however.

I have a friend who had a young guy he coached, employed and mentored. He's Hispanic. He is now living in a bigger city. That young man is a US born citizen, not a. Dreamer, or any crazy thing. He (as reported by my friend) is in constant fear, and has gone to extremes of keeping his passport and birth certificate on his person.

Some of the stories seem incomprehensible to most of us.

I'll give the tellers the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Did he speak with an accent? That seems to be the definition of 'probable cause' these days.

Just want to poll real quick because I think a member was possibly seeing something that wasn’t there.

I read this as SAJ-99 asking about the accent and then basically throwing a spear at the “probably cause” for searches and raids these days. Not saying anything towards people with accents.

Please tell me I’m not crazy.

 

[cgasner1]

Flat taxes disproportionately affect lower-income folks @Forkyfinder, here's why:

Let's compare three families of 4. Poverty, middle class, and wealthy. Let's assume google AI is right and the average monthly cost of living for a family of this size in the US is around $8-10k a month. Let's go low-end and say it costs $8k a month, so $96,000 a year.

A family of 4 living at poverty level is making (assuming both parents work) $40k a year. Tax it at 30%, and that leaves $28k to cover cost of living. That family comes out at negative $68,000 for the year.

A family of 4 living at middle class is making $150,000 a year. Taxed at 30%, that leaves $105k to cover cost of living, so that family comes out at plus $9k for the year.

A family of 4 that is wealthy is making $1 million a year. Taxed at 30%, that family still has $700k to cover cost of living, so that family comes out at plus $604k.

This is why we have tax brackets, otherwise it is "regressive." That's also the reason sales taxes on groceries are a problem, they disproportionately affect people in poverty. It makes it impossible for anyone to crawl out.

It also goes to the disparity in mentality surrounding indigent people. For someone without money, the only purpose is to spend it. If it isn't spent it will be taken. A simple slogan that very much applies is:
For the poor: money is for spending. For the middle class: money is for saving. For the wealthy: money is for status.

Trying to apply one mentality to the other doesn't make sense then either, because people's perception of money is tied to the socio-economic status they grew up in.

As seems appropriate given yesterday's holiday, I'll leave off with a MLK jr. quote that I've been pondering lately: "It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps"

I’d like to see a simplified and fair tax. My deductions are set to single zero and I have 250 dollars taken out of all my check on top of that. Being married that should be enough money paid. I shouldn’t have to pay an account 300 dollars to tell me I owe the government another 7k. The entire system has sucked for along time glad we have someone to blame all these problems

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Not sure...but his nationality was Hmong. Skin color is definitely probable cause these days.

Just want to poll real quick because I think a member was possibly seeing something that wasn’t there.

I read this as Bonsasbay joining SAJ-99 as calling out the reason people are raided and picked up. Not making fun of people of color.

Please tell me I’m not crazy.


I’ll have a post to put up after I get my feedback.