Antler point restrictions

[A-con]

Much of New Mexico is going to antler point restrictions this year; the Gila will be 5 points or better.
What are your thoughts?
Good, bad or don’t care.

What about elsewhere, do you think your elk hunting state should impose restrictions?

 

[kirkl]

In Eastern Washington we have spike only unless you get drawn for an any bull permit. theres lots of bulls around so when you do draw you have a shot at a decent bull. Westside of the state has point restrictions in some units, like 3 or 4pt or better. Id like to see it 5pt or better for the any bull hunters that draw a permit that way you let the middle bulls get bigger and leave the spikes for the people that dont get drawn. If a spike is the first bull you see and you shoot it with a any bull tag you should of just put in for a cow tag.

 

[schmalts]

Good, in areas with good genetics they should let the genetics show full potential.

 

[BigHornRam]

Antler restrictions make sense in areas that have poor bull/cow ratios. Here in Montana we have a variety of management practices which allow the hunter to select an area that suits them best. Either sex, any bull, or browtine bull only. The areas with easier access tend to have the most restrictive management. Works pretty well.

 

[BuzzH]

Antler point restrictions are a joke for the most part.

All MT does is let a bull elk live 2.5 years instead of 1.5 years. Thats fine if your goal is to whack raghorns instead of spikes. It does nothing for bull to cow ratios except carry over a bunch of spikes making post season bull to cow ratios look good on paper. It does nothing to promote trophy potential either, unless you think a raghorn is a trophy bull.

The only way to correctly manage for trophy bulls is to manage for trophy bulls...or severly limit access, season length, etc. Just making a point restriction is not going to solve the problems of mature bull post season numbers.

The thing most people dont realize, is that bull elk need to be 8+ years old to be good trophies...general seasons/easy access combined with point restrictions dont get you there.

 

[Oak]

The only way to correctly manage for trophy bulls is to manage for trophy bulls...or severly limit access, season length, etc. Just making a point restriction is not going to solve the problems of mature bull post season numbers.

And the reason this doesn't happen in many places goes back to my question in SI about wildlife agency responsibility. Too many people are unwilling to restrict their opportunities to whack the first raghorn that walks by and rural communities won't let G&F restrict tags because poor planning has left business owners counting on 'x' number of hunters in the area every year. So instead of managing herds to have a healthy age structure, we manage herds so business owners can line their wallets and Joe Sixpack can have the opportunity to whack a raghorn every year.

No, I'm not bitter about CO's elk management.

Oak

 

[BigHornRam]

Kinda hard to give everyone in the state an opportunity to hunt elk and then have trophy elk behind every tree. I like a variety of management practices. Having a trophy elk limited draw unit here and there is fine with me just as long as there are other types of opportunity as well. Seems like Buzz goes for the opportunity hunts also with all the rag bulls he has shot in the last couple years. I read about some units this year will go to a browtine bull/antlerless elk hunt this year in this mornings paper. Sounds interesting.

 

[schmalts]

While i think the 5pt rule is a great idea, i think the 4pt rule in CO is a friggin joke. protect a spike so it can get to be a raghorn, yea thats a great plan. CO should bump the point restriction to 5pts too.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul,

I put in for the MT NR license because the draw odds of drawing the combo license are about 4 times as good...I apply strictly for the deer tag...if I see an elk...well then I'll decide then. I pass up legal bulls every year. The area I hunt is mostly just a very good whitetail area, but I usually see elk 75% of the days I hunt.

The point isnt about what people choose to shoot, its about whether or not brow-tined bull units do any good for bull-to-cow ratios or produce older bulls.

The answer is no, they dont. May as well have it open for any antlered bull....

By the way, nice trophy bull you whacked this year...from one raghorn slayer to another.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

I know where a group of 30 mature bulls are after the season is over, and they are in a browtine only unit in Montana. Your "letting them live to 2.5 instead of 1.5 years" doesn't hold water.

If you read my post about this years elk it says "eater bull" not trophy bull. You and Oak are are the ones whining about "joe six pack shooting rag bulls" .


Schmalts,

A lot of 5 points are 2.5 years old. What's the difference between a 4 point and 5 point? Elk hunting to me is about getting meat. Sure I'd like to get a wall hanger someday but if I don't it won't be the end of the world. Sounds to me like the most important thing for you is the size of the rack. That's cool. Open up your wallet and keep putting in for those 1 in 100 draws, and maybe you'll get to elk hunt a couple times before you die.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul,

Whats your defintion of mature, I bet it isnt the same as mine. I dont consider any brow tined bull a mature bull.

Also, please educate yourself and talk with a few biologists and get out of the 'root.

Oh, and I'd bet that your herd of 30 rags would be there regardless of a brow-tine only season...I wonder if your 30 rags are even IN that hunting area during the season? I'd guess not.

The MTFWP, U of M, etc. have done exhaustive studies on brow-tined restrictions...without getting techinical they provide exactly what I described, you shift your kill from a 1.5 year old spike bull to 2.5 year old raghorns....and thats a fact. Studies have also shown very little, if any, recruitment of trophy class bulls (6+ years old) into the population.

Colorado basically has the same management...care to guess what the average age bull killed there is? Care to guess how the recruitment is for even 5 year old bulls?

Hey, I'll be the first to admit, its a great management plan if your objective is to kill rags instead of spikes...works great.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul,

I dont need an explaination for why you shoot rags, nor do I need to explain myself.

I'm just stating the facts...brow tined bull restrictions are great for producing raghorn opportunities....you and I should both be happy about that.

They are a joke if your goal is to produce trophy class animals. The way you do that is to limit access, limit season length/timing, OR permit only. When you have a 10 week general season, you arent going to produce many trophy class animals in areas with unlimited or easy access...despite the antler restrictions. FACT.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

My definition of mature is a bull that Schmalts would wet his pants to shoot. They are out there even in a browtine only unit in Montana. You need to get off your computer and away from the college campus if you want to find them however.

 

[BuzzH]

Apparently you arent getting out enough either...judging by all the mature bulls you're killing.

News flash for Paul....the browtine units that currently have a decent population of bulls that Schmalts would wet his pants to shoot...always had them, always will (providing the access stays limited), and the brow tine restrictions didnt make a difference....except saving a few spikes that will now die as raghorns.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

A spike that's shot as a spike has a zero percent chance of becoming mature. A spike that's passed up because of antler restictions has some chance of becoming mature. FACT! Elk do have a way of finding the hard to access places even in the accessable areas. And the older they get, the wiser they get.

 

[Oak]

Paul,
I've shot my share of raghorns. I'm not criticizing those that do it. However, I would love to see my opportunity to shoot a raghorn reduced if it meant that I would get to kill a good bull every two or three years. Actually, many units/hunts in CO are that way now, but I've got too many points to waste on an average hunt. So I'll kill an occasional raghorn, but I kill at least one cow every year. To me, opportunity to kill a raghorn and opportunity to kill a cow mean about he same thing. Unfortunately, it isn't the same thing to JOE and the motel/liquor store/mercantile owner.

In general, point restrictions are not the way to go if you want to increase the number of mature bulls. You've either got to severely limit bull licenses, or go to a system like Utah. But CO will never have more than 1-2 mature bulls in most herds in the state as long as they sell UNLIMITED bull tags.

Another pathetic truth....going to a 5-point rule in CO would result in a bunch of three and four-point bulls shot and left.

FWIW, I've never killed a mature bull. Here's the biggest bull I've killed in this raghorn mecca.

Oak

 

[Point Creep]

Oak, nice looking bull there, Congrats!

I don't thing it's as simple as saying to create mature bulls, that you

1) severely limit bull licenses
2) go to a system like Utah
3) use a point restriction

I don't think anything BHR said about MT elk management in his 1st post is incorrect.

Personally I think MT is the best managed elk state in the west. We have tons of variety and opportunity, with a lot of good bulls. I think restrictions on yearlings is just a tiny part of the overall management of different areas, probably doesn't make a huge difference, but definately allows some elk to live past thier first year or two.

 

[Oak]

I agree that it's not as simple as "a, b, or c". But would you agree that you're not going to have many mature bulls in areas with unlimited bull tags? Montana limits their tags, don't they?

Oak

 

[Point Creep]

Montana limits licenses to non-residents, but there's a lot of areas that are general (over the counter) for residents that have good numbers of mature bulls. Non-residents have 30-40% odds to hunt them I think.

We also have units that are limited quota and/or have other forms of restrictions which work well for the easier trophy hunting. There's areas that could use improvements, but overall, it's real good.

 

[Oak]

I just looked this up:

Two of CO's biggest elk herds, the Bear's Ears herd and White River herd had post hunt "adult"(3 years or older) bull to cow ratios of 1.8 and 1.7 respectively at the end of the 2003 seasons. That doesn't seem very good.
http://wildlife.state.co.us/WildlifeCommission/2004/May/PreMtg/JEsummaries.pdf

Colorado will never limit non-residents. Unlimited resident licenses wouldn't be a problem (although I'm not condoning limiting non-res. and not residents).

I just think they could be doing a lot better here.

Oak