Antelope Length measurement?

[IdahoBugler]

Do any of you official measurers or stud antelope hunters know how to measure the length of an antelope horn? I just got my antelope scored and all our measurements were within an inch except the length measurement. They were off anywhere between 3/8 to 4/8. Anyway I assume I was wrong and he was right but from what I read on the score sheet it doesn't seem right. Anyway to make a long story short my antelope missed it by an inch. Even if we took my measurements he wouldn't have made it but I just want to see what you guys think on the length measurement.

 

[Oak]

The way I understand it, you use a straight edge to draw an imaginary line across the base, from the low edge of the front of the horn to the low edge of the back of the horn. Then you begin your length measurement at this line, in the center of the side of the horn, and follow the outside curve of the horn to the tip.

Something like this:

 

[Big Fin]

Bugler - I am not an expert by any means, but what Oak said is what I have understood. I have watched an official measurer score quite a few of them and he has always done as Oak stated.

He also stated the intent of the length measurement is to give full credit for any curvature of the horn, so he follows the greatest outside curve.

Regardless of score, that is still one hell of a buck you shot.

 

[Muley Crazy]

Hey ID Bulger (Mr. Kicker) not to run people into the dirt, but the B&C scorer that scored my mule deer was off by over 20 inches and he could not add tenths very well. SUPER NICE guy but was still learning the ropes. You might have someone else try scoring it. The guy who scored my Dads Grizzly was great re-mesured the bear 3 times because it was so close to book and he wanted to be sure he was correct. Shoot me a PM if you would like the name of the 2nd guy that scored my muley.Due to us living in the same area you could of very well had the first guy I had score my buck. BTW what numbers did you come up with on your goat??

 

[IdahoBugler]

The way that oak showed it is the way that I have always done it and the way I measured my goat. When I took it in I asked him how he measured the length and he measured from the back of the horn and up to the tip. Which put it 3/8" shorter on both horns. The guy came up with 80 4/8 gross and 79 net. When I took it in a month ago I came up with 81 4/8 gross and 80 3/8 net. I haven't went back again and measured it but I know a couple measurements have already lost an 1/8". I'm guessing either way he will be just shy of making the awards book.

If he doesn't make it that is fine with me. The hunt was awesome and still the best goat I have taken. I just want to know how the measurement is taken for future reference.

Fin - I noticed when greeny was posting pics of your goat that it looked like you hadn't removed the cores from the horn yet? Everyone I talked with said I need to keep all that meat and hair on the base so you don't loose any material. I can't figure out how to do that without removing the horn from the core. Every time I remove the horn all that comes off with the core. Let me know what you guys do.

 

[BOHNTR]

IB:

The photo that Oak submitted is the correct line of measurement. The only measurement that takes place from the center of the rear portion of each horn is when determining the prong length. If it was measured the way you stated, you need to notify B&C and request it be re-measured and explain the reason why. They will give you the name of an additional measurer in your area (one who probably measures more frequently) and it can be measured again. Do not get it re-measured without contacting B&C first.......one of the first questions I ask folks when they bring me critters to score is, "has this been measured before?" If the answer is "yes", I don't measure it until I get authorization from with B&C and/or P&Y.

If you were taking a vacation to sunny southern California, I'd get authorization to re-measure it and we'd be done with it! Palm Springs is nice this time of year.

 

[Muley Crazy]

BOHNTR whats the reason for having to contact B&C before a re-mesure ??

To keep people form seeking the biggist best score ??

Thanks MC

 

[IdahoBugler]

Bohntr -

Thanks for the reply. Does b&c know that he measured the antelope? I was just curious because what he gave me was an unofficial score sheet. Not sure how that all works. Also you said that is the correct line of measurement but where is the correct starting point. Do you place a flat edge between the front and back of the horn and then measure from there up? I will post a pic of my antelope tonight but it's not straight across like oaks is. I guess before I go and get it re-measured I want to make sure that I'm doing it right and that it even has a chance to make it. Thanks again.

 

[BOHNTR]

BOHNTR whats the reason for having to contact B&C before a re-mesure ??

To keep people form seeking the biggist best score ??

Exactly.....

Does b&c know that he measured the antelope? I was just curious because what he gave me was an unofficial score sheet

Only if you paid the money, filled out the proper forms, and had him submit it. Other than that, they probably are not aware.

Also you said that is the correct line of measurement but where is the correct starting point. Do you place a flat edge between the front and back of the horn and then measure from there up? I will post a pic of my antelope tonight but it's not straight across like oaks is.

It starts from the lowest protrusion on the outside of the horn material. Often times this occurs towards the front of the horn, which requires a straight edge to make a perpedicular line to the center of the horn......which is your starting point. Hopefully that's not too confusing......it's better to demonstrate than to try and type an explanation. Hope it helps.

 

[Big Fin]

Fin - I noticed when greeny was posting pics of your goat that it looked like you hadn't removed the cores from the horn yet? Everyone I talked with said I need to keep all that meat and hair on the base so you don't loose any material. I can't figure out how to do that without removing the horn from the core. Every time I remove the horn all that comes off with the core. Let me know what you guys do.

Bugler:

I was told the same thing. So, I kept that stinky thing in my shop until such time as I could get it officially measured. I have since been told that you can take the horns off the cores and reattach after cleaning, but if they crack, both your circumference measurements below the prong will be the smallest of the two measurements.

I am not sure how guys do it. You can't freeze them. They stink like hell, if you don't take the cores off. I kept mine in my shop (to stay married) and it shrunk like crazy. The second circumference measurement was officially 7 6/8, which was 1/8 less than what I had measured the day after shooting.

But here is the killer. The bases were 6 6/8, which were 6/8 and 5/8 less than what I measured the day after shooting him. Taxi told me that since the bases are mostly meat and tissue, they will shrink more than anything. He suggested that I take the horns off the cores and plaster them back on as soon as possible. Now, they look like someone put a hose clamp on the bases. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[IdahoBugler]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I really do enjoy measuring animals and one day soon I would like to be an official measurer. So practice now will make me that much better, I hope. Anyway Bohntr I have another question for you. The pic I post here has a white line that I used and measured 15 2/8". The red line was the one the scorer used and came up with 14 7/8".

I have drawn out two yellow lines labeled line 1 and line 2. D1 was taken where there is horn and I labeled it H1 (I know thinking deer for a second). My next question is where does the D2 measurement take place. I divided my longest horn by 4 and came up with 3 7/8". Know is the D2 measurement taken at the top of line 1 or 2. Exactly 3 7/8" from the imaginary line or from where you took your D1 measurement. I hope that is clear as mud. If I'm asking two many questions just let me know and I'll stop.

Thanks again. Bryce

 

[BOHNTR]

Bryce:

The "white" line is in the correct line. I would make the straight edge a bit more perpendicular, but that's close.

Regarding your circumference measurements, D 2-3-4 are taken at the quarters based on the longest horn length. That horn is length is determined by measuring from the base. So line #1 is correct.

Having said that, remember when measuring the "base" circumference it must be taken perpendicular to the axis of the horn immediately above the base's irregular edge or serration. While the length measurement starts at the lowest point on the outside edge, the circumference measurement is not taken to the lowest part. Rather it must be taken at the lowest location where the measuring tape stays in contact with horn material for the entire circumference measurement and does not open space by the irregular lower edge. So ""line #2" where you have "H1" marked would be the correct location to measure the base circumference. Hope it helps.

 

[BuzzH]

I wish someone would clear up the circumference measurements. I've been told that if you remove the cores and then reattach them with bondo that they just double the second circumference measurement.

I had another scorer flat tell me that I should bondo the cores and shove enough bondo in them to make sure the circumference measurements do not shrink more than what they were green.

Some of the ones he was measuring while I was there had a pile of bondo in them and IMO had bigger base measurements than they did green. I asked him about that and he said that its up to the scorer to determine if the bondo is increasing the base measurements. He had one that he claimed he "deducted" slightly for as he thought the bondo was excessive. I have my doubts he deducted anything and I dont know how you could determine what the proper deduction would be.

I think that B&C and P&Y need to get this issue resolved...and I think it would make a lot of sense to just drop the 60 day drying period. I know it would kind of be unfair to people that have already had dried heads measured, but its becoming such a huge issue with the bondo VS naturally drying. Plus, I think a lot of antelope are being shorted and some are being pushed in due to the reattaching issues.

There has to be a more fair way to score antelope.

 

[IdahoBugler]

Bryce:

The "white" line is in the correct line. I would make the straight edge a bit more perpendicular, but that's close.

Regarding your circumference measurements, D 2-3-4 are taken at the quarters based on the longest horn length. That horn is length is determined by measuring from the base. So line #1 is correct.

Having said that, remember when measuring the "base" circumference it must be taken perpendicular to the axis of the horn immediately above the base's irregular edge or serration. While the length measurement starts at the lowest point on the outside edge, the circumference measurement is not taken to the lowest part. Rather it must be taken at the lowest location where the measuring tape stays in contact with horn material for the entire circumference measurement and does not open space by the irregular lower edge. So ""line #2" where you have "H1" marked would be the correct location to measure the base circumference. Hope it helps.

Cool that is how I thought it was. It made more sense to me to measure that way but I just wasn't 100% sure. I did know that the base measurement needed to be over the horn material and not over the openings. Thanks again for all your expertise.

Buzz -
I agree with you on the bondo stuff. I'm pretty sure that both p&y and b&c will not take a larger base measurement then D2 if there is excessive bondo. When I took my p&y antelope in to be measured I just took in the horns without the skull. I did some reading on the b&c web page and they said it was fine to have them measured bondoed onto the cores as long as there was not excessive bondo trying to swell the horn??? I agree it is a bummer that the antelope shrink so much and there isn't a better way to get them scored before this happens. It would be interesting to know how much they shrink beyond the 60 days also.

 

[EliAGrimmett]

I've been told that if you remove the cores and then reattach them with bondo that they just double the second circumference measurement.

This is only true if the base measurement exceeds that of the second measurement.

This is why Doc's most recent pronghorn is not the World Record. Doc wanted the buck left off of the horn cores so that B&C couldn't find an excuse to not let if be the World Record. When it was killed the bases were 7 6/8 green and the second measurement was smaller. According to B&C's new rule about bondo this type of horn growth wouldn't be allowed even if it was natural like this particular buck. At any rate Doc's bases shrunk almost 6/8 of an inch because he left them off the cores.

A very silly rule.

 

[BuzzH]

So, if you leave the cores attached as is...let them dry down on the cores, then you can have base measurements that exceed the D2 measurement?

But, if you bondo them, then the base measurements cant exceed the D2 measurement?

If thats correct, its a jacked up mess. I know for a fact that not all scorers are measuring that way...the guy that scored my wifes antelope for one example. We just let the horns dry down on the cores, and I'd have to look at the score sheet to see if the bases exceeded the d2 measurement, but I'm almost positive they did.

My problem is that its not consistant even between official scorers. I dont care what the proper procedure is, but there should be one consistant way.

Simply doubling the D2 is shorting some antelope and increasing it on others.

I guess the way to make sure you get the higher score if you're going to bondo your horns is to make the bases exactly equal to the d2 measurement.

 

[EliAGrimmett]

So, if you leave the cores attached as is...let them dry down on the cores, then you can have base measurements that exceed the D2 measurement?

But, if you bondo them, then the base measurements cant exceed the D2 measurement?

That's the way I understand it and it's how the B&C scorers we've come across have been doing it. I know for a fact that P&Y does it this way and I'm fairly certain B&C does it the same. If anyone knows any different I'd love to be wrong on this one.

 

[Big Fin]

At any rate Doc's bases shrunk almost 6/8 of an inch because he left them off the cores.

A very silly rule.

Not that I am happy for the shrinkage he had, but I it gives me relief to know that I was not imagining things, as I watched my NM buck shrink so much the first three weeks after I shot him.

The bases were at 7 4/8, +/- 1/8 when shot. Within two weeks, they were both around 7 0/8, and by the time he was measured officially (67 days later), they were 6 6/8.

The taxi told me that if I had bondo'd them the first couple days, he could have kept them very close to the 7 4/8, and kept them from cracking. Since that is still less than the 7 6/8 of the official D2 after 60 days, it seems I would have been allowed the 7 4/8 base measurements, since they didn't exceed the D2, NO?

How do you get B&C to address this bondo issue? Not that I care what the final resolution is, but I know myself, and sounds like "Doc" were worried about doing something wrong and having the buck disqualified. Maybe the bondo rule is clarified and I just don't have the intellect to understand it.

 

[schmalts]

This may be aoff topic a little but talking about the bondo brings this up.
This may sound funny but I was thinking when I do my NM lope mount I may try to have the horns removable from the cores on the finished mount. I do not have the wifes blessing to hang much else up on the wall and I was thinking that if I ever shoot a bigger one I can swap out the NM horns with the bigger ones from the newer critter. Since you can control the spread a little when sticking the horns on you could make some adjustments. Maybe use something like silicon or dental impression gel instead of bondo. What do you think?? worth a try? It would be like having a wife with tits you could inflate and deflate for any occasion!!

 

[MarvB]

It would be like having a wife with tits you could inflate and deflate for any occasion

and you wonder why you don't have her blessing.....