Another nail in the coffin

[BuzzH]

Ithaca,

Dont waste your time with ringer, he's not rowing with both oars in the water.

Ringer,

Please take some time to read, comprehend, and understand the issue before you post.

Sockeye salmon are native to many Idaho waters, but on the brink of being no more. Some years Redfish Lake gets only one or two sockeye to return...which is more sad than not having any.

Also, please note that every WILD run of anadromous fish in Idaho is threatened.

Have a third grader define "anadromous" for you...

 

[ringer]

Dear Manny, Moe and Curly. I understand what you are saying but my point is that you need to move on about sockeye and let them go away. The salmon runs are and will continue to come back without eliminating the dams if the clearcutting is never allowed again. To me that was and is the biggest problem as it silts up their spawning habitat. I understand that it must be frustrating to push your agenda and ideas when the courts and government are fed up with the damage to people that your agenda will cause. You have lost this battle so let's talk about ATV offroad use in Arizona or how much I drink. Or maybe we can discuss removing the dam at lake powell so the Colorado can once again run free.

 

[BuzzH]

Ringer,

Once again you show your total lack of understanding of the issue.

Clearcutting does not kill 90% of the smolt before they hit the salt. Further, theres been vast amounts of research done, by over 100 top fisheries biologists, that have found that roughly 70% of spawning habitat is in good condition in Idaho. The problem is, the smolt never make it back to utilize it.

There has been study on top of study that clearly points out that smolt survival is the #1 problem facing anadromous fish in Idaho. Its also been proven, beyond any doubt, that dams are the cause of that heavy loss of smolt. Its also been proven that barging, trucking, etc. of smolt doesnt do much good...and according to ISSU, even smaller returns happen because of smolt barging.

Read the PATH report or any other recent peer-reviewed scientific reports on anadromous fish in Idaho. Then find that clue, as you seem to have misplaced it.

 

[Ithaca 37]

ringer, It seems you have no idea what the problems are. Please explain how discontinuing clearcutting will improve downstream smolt migration.

This oughta be good for a laugh.

Just in case you want to find out what the primary cause of smolt mortality is you can go back to the link I provided above. (Hint: It's not clearcutting)

We've given you links to the information you need to understand this issue. Please study up and quit making a fool of yourself.

 

[JoseCuervo]

. I understand what you are saying but my point is that you need to move on about sockeye and let them go away. The salmon runs are and will continue to come back without eliminating the dams if the clearcutting is never allowed again. To me that was and is the biggest problem as it silts up their spawning habitat.

Ringer,
I have never seen any evidence of Clearcutting in the drainages above Redfish Lake. There ain't any, there never was, there never will be. The sockeye in Redfish are Endangered due to downstream factors, not factors in their spawning areas.

You obviously don't have any knowledge of this issue. Why not take some time and read up and learn something about Sockeye in the Upper Salmon River?

 

[ringer]

What's a smolt? You three have got to be roomates or the same person unless my puter has an echo in it.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ringer, "What's a smolt" Sorry to confuse you and thanks for letting us know we're going too fast for ya. Look the word up in the dictionary.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey Ringer,

Why should we give up on the Sockeye? Who made you God and decided what creatures should go extinct? And why should this generation remove fishing opportunities for FUTURE generations.

Part of being a good parent, is providing more opportunity for your kids (and grandkids) than you had. This definitely includes hunting and fishing.

 

[BigHornRam]

"In 2000, the federal agency National Oceanic and Atmosphere Administration Fisheries reported that four dams on the lower Columbia River and four dams on the lower Snake River are the greatest source of human-inflicted mortality on Idaho's salmon and steelhead. "

So why aren't we talking about breaching all eight dams? Or should we just wait to bring that up after the four on the Snake are breached first?

 

[ringer]

That's my point on all dams. It does no good to breach the upper dams without doing the same at Bonneville and that is not going to happen. Bonneville has been working for years to improve escapement. Wonder how you explain to the millions of people in Oregon and southern Washington that they will have no power. It seems like the old idea of protecting the midget Mexican Flycatcher at all costs to the human factors. No easy solution yet we continue to have groups suing to breach dams or even blow them ie the dam for lake Powell. What is the final scenario to returning wild salmon to Idaho? Is there a proposal that will allow that without considering the lower Columbia? Gotta go have my first martini.

 

[BuzzH]

Ringer,

Once again, please take the time to have a third grader read you the mountain of evidence that over 100 top fisheries biologists from several different agencies have to say about your questions.

Its all there for you to read.

The things you're bringing up have been thought of, and solutions found for every single one of them.

Do some research.

BHR,

You could also sit in while that third grader reads to Ringer.

 

[ringer]

Since I am reading challenged how about answering the lower Columbia question for me. What is the proposed solution that will allow good escapement to reach you?

 

[BuzzH]

Ringer,

Until you inform yourself, it wont do any good to answer your questions.

You have to understand the problems associated with smolt survival, length of time they're in the river, etc. etc. etc.

The bottom line is, you dont need to take the dams out on the Columbia River, just the Snake. The research is there, do your own work. I've read over 2 dozen well documented and peer-reviewed articles, technical reports, etc. from leading fisheries biologists. The information is available to you. Instead of asking dumb questions, seek the answers for yourself. You need to read these reports for yourself and quit listening to the drunk on the next bar stool...

 

[ringer]

Buzz-If nothing else you are the best I have found at giving me a good chuckle every day. Keep up the good work and spend more time doing that invaluable research for those of us who have real jobs.

 

[Ten Bears]

Keep up the good work ringer.

I've already beat that horse with these three.

 

[BuzzH]

Ringer,

Heres why I wont waste my time with you...you have no appreciation for salmon and steelhead, you've already shown that. To you its A-Okay if we let sockeye die out of Idaho rivers. To me its just another classic example of piss poor stewardship by ALL of us. Currently its my salmon and steelhead that are at risk, tomorrow its your_______(fill in the blank).

I do care about salmon and steelhead and in particular the wild runs. I started fishing salmon and steelhead in Idaho in 1978, and at that time you could legally keep wild steelhead, and there was a season on chinook salmon. A few years later, wild steelhead were off limits and there was not another chinook season until 1999. I've also talked in length with many locals in Kamiah, Orifino, etc. that fished prior to the dams on the Snake. My friend Duke Parkening, was one of the first people to seriously fish the Middle Fork of the Clearwater and was fishing there in the late 1950's with Ted Trueblood. He talked of hooking over 20 WILD steelhead a day on a fly up until the mid-60's...his yearly take on WILD steelhead with fly gear, would boggle your mind. Today, if you catch a couple wild steelhead in a season of serious fishing, you're doing real well. My friend Laird Robinson remembers where he learned to fish steelhead...in the Selway River, which has not been open to steelhead fishing since the 1960's.

Are you seeing a correlation with the serious decline in the 1960's???? Take a guess what kind of concrete structures were completed about then, and where? HMMMM?

But, they arent the problem, its the clearcuts.

As nice as it is to catch fish like this, its nothing compared to what was and what could be again:

These steelhead are fish, but they arent wild and they dont fight nearly as well as wild fish, or look as nice either.

Even this King here, which is "wild"...

This fish has an adipose fin, but its not a true wild fish for the Middle Fork of the Clearwater. This is a fish born in the Middle Fork, but is of Rapid River stock...all the true wild kings in the Middle Fork and North Fork are history...take a guess why? Clearwater dam (which was unsuccessfully completed, but fully successful in ending the wild run of Middle Fork kings) and Dworsak Dam which completely eliminated the wild run of 40+pound kings that spawned in that river. It also successfully eliminated all the spawning habitat for one of the largest (in body size) wild runs of Steelhead found anywhere. We're talking wild steelhead that rival the size of those found in the Babine, Kispiox, and Thompson River...world class steelhead. I wonder how much revenue has been lost since that time? What would anglers pay for the chance to fish for 40 inch plus steelhead? Take a look at guided trips on the Kispiox for an answer.

So, I guess the deal is, I know what WAS, what is, and what there could be again.

You can criticize all you want about what I choose to inform myself with. The why is whats more important, I want future generations to not only enjoy what I have, I want them to enjoy what I never had the opportunity to...catching 20 wild steelhead a day on a fly, hanging 40 pound wild kings on the Middle Fork and learning to fish steelhead in the Selway.

Its all a matter of appreciation for species, the environment, and future generations...which is important to me, but apparently not you.

 

[ringer]

Buz you better throw those old spawners back. They are darker than Toby's ass . I fished with Perk Lyda in Orofino for years and understand what you are saying. I still don't believe you will get wild runs back without destroying the lower dams. It would be nice but people will not allow the current system to be recreated unless it makes financial sense. Beating up on a declining number of ranchers is one thing but messing with the everyday cost and comfort of 95% of the voters is another. I do wish you luck in your fight.

 

[BigHornRam]

IT,

I checked out your TU link and it was pretty much what I expected. Similar in nature to the wolf hugger garbage you like to reference. Here's about the only example of honest information.

"MYTH: Breaching proponents say it would be a "silver bullet" that alone would bring sustainable levels of salmon and steelhead back to the Snake.

REALITY: For Columbia-Snake basin salmon recovery, there is no such thing as a silver bullet. As an organization, Trout Unlimited has not focused all resources on taking out dams, and we leave no illusions that dam breaching alone would recover Snake River fish."

They also point out (just like Cali's brother did in the second post) that the farmers that benefit from the dams are CORPORATE farmers. Is being a CORPORATE farmer bad? Most farmers that are that are still in business today have incorporated so why the constant use of the term CORPORATE like it is a four letter word or something?

 

[MattK]

BHR- As usual you can look past fact to get obscure information. I am wondering why you wish the dams to stay. Do you identify with "welfare ranchers" in that region?

 

[BigHornRam]

"Beating up on a declining number of ranchers is one thing but messing with the everyday cost and comfort of 95% of the voters is another."

So true! I can't even get salmon enthusiasts like MattK, Gunner, IT, and Buzz to for go their modern electrical convinences. How are we going to get those who could give a rip about salmon to give up their electricity? I think these guys should be the first to make the sacrifice to show everyone else how it can be done.