American prairie. What's the issue?

[DFS]

As long as bison have ample space and good grass, a good five round wire wildlife friendly fence has proven to work well.

View attachment 399654

That’s borderline high fence imo have you watched elk try to get across a low fence.

 

[Straight Arrow]

That’s borderline high fence imo have you watched elk try to get across a low fence.

Yes, deer and elk cross it. Not often, but there has been damage to the fence by large numbers of elk crossing. Even when damaged, the bison are not interested in crossing.

Is your opinion argumentative and/or do you wish to share information?

 

[DFS]

Yes, deer and elk cross it. Not often, but there has been damage to the fence by large numbers of elk crossing. Even when damaged, the bison are not interested in crossing.

Is your opinion argumentative and/or do you wish to share information?

It’s everything that is wrong with western Montana. You build chit in wintering areas impede wildlife travel with high fences and then turn around bitch about low wildlife numbers on public land and come to the east and rape and pillage every November.

 

[mtmuley]

Yes, deer and elk cross it. Not often, but there has been damage to the fence by large numbers of elk crossing. Even when damaged, the bison are not interested in crossing.

Is your opinion argumentative and/or do you wish to share information?

I'm gonna listen to @OlWhitcombPlace. mtmuley

 

[Straight Arrow]

Wildlife move freely across bison grazing areas' fences, so there is disagreement with the argumentative perspective about those fences.
Your angst is clearly understood, and even agreed upon, but it has very little to do with western Montana "high fences".

BTW, I don't "build chit" anywhere.

 

[DFS]

Wildlife move freely across bison grazing areas' fences, so there is disagreement with the argumentative perspective about those fences.
Your angst is clearly understood, and even agreed upon, but it has very little to do with western Montana "high fences".

BTW, I don't "build chit" anywhere.

I’ve watched enough wildlife cross fences to know that fence would not be wildlife friendly. I am for keeping things as they are so in that aspect I have became more receptive to APR. But at the end of the day the money is coming from people that have destroyed their back yard and into places where there is still good people that would never destroy their back yard.

 

[OlWhitcombPlace]

As long as bison have ample space and good grass, a good six round wire wildlife friendly fence has proven to work well.

View attachment 399654

This looks like Turner. AP uses 4 wire wildlife friendly including a hot 2nd wire from top.

Andy

 

[DFS]

This looks like Turner. AP uses 4 wire wildlife friendly including a hot 2nd wire from top.

Andy

Is there any studies on these fences regarding deer elk and antelope movement?

 

[OlWhitcombPlace]

Is their any studies on these fences regarding deer elk and antelope movement?

Yes, although not my area of expertise. Some results looking strictly at variations on 4-wire are here:

Frontiers | How did the deer cross the fence: An evaluation of wildlife-friendlier fence modifications to facilitate deer movement

Fences are a common feature throughout the landscape of North America’s Great Plains region. Knowledge surrounding the harmful implication that fences have o...

www.frontiersin.org

Key takeaway is that crossing success in WT and Mule Deer in eastern MT increases as the bottom-wire height increases.

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wsb.1067

Same takeaways except also shows no negative impacts of sage grouse flagging or PVC on the top-wire on likelihood of deer crossing.

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wsb.869

Pronghorn specific. Raise the bottom wire and make it smooth. Goat bars don't help they hurt.

I'm not aware of studies that include 6-wire or woven wire, but they are obviously a greater impediment to ungulates.

This is a cool paper that just shows how ubiquitous fence encounters are for ungulates in the western US, and how much they change movement behavior. One snippet -- "We found both species were extensively affected by fences, with nearly 40% of fence encounters altering their normal movements, though pronghorn were more strongly affected than mule deer. On average, an individual pronghorn encountered fences 250 times a year—twice the encounter rate of mule deer. Pronghorn were more likely to bounce away from fences, whereas deer engaged in more back-and-forth, trace and average movement near fences."

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2664.13806?_gl=1*u18web*_gcl_au*Mjg2OTU5MDYyLjE3NjQ4ODUyNTkuNzk5MjA2NzY4LjE3NjQ4ODU2MzMuMTc2NDg4NTY0Mw..*_ga*MTcyMzQ4NzAwMS4xNzY0ODg1MjU5*_ga_9C4T5P6PP6*czE3NjkzNzM4NjUkbzMkZzEkdDE3NjkzNzM5ODgkajQ5JGwwJGgyMzc2NTA5MjE.

Andy

 

[El Jason]

@OlWhitcombPlace

Andy,

Thank you for coming here to provide your expertise. It’s a breath of fresh air.

 

[mtmuley]

@OlWhitcombPlace

Andy,

Thank you for coming here to provide your expertise. It’s a breath of fresh air.

Yep. mtmuley

 

[Gerald Martin]

That’s borderline high fence imo have you watched elk try to get across a low fence.

There’s a herd of @300-500 head of elk that move regularly from one side of 191 through that bison pasture and up on the hill behind where @Straight Arrow posted. I see a lot of elk hit on the highway but the fence doesn’t seem to be a limiting factor on their movement. It is possible that the area where the elk habitual cross has a lower fence than right where Straigh Arrow posted.

 

[mtmuley]

There’s a herd of @300-500 head of elk that move regularly from one side of 191 through that bison pasture and up on the hill behind where @Straight Arrow posted. I see a lot of elk hit on the highway but the fence doesn’t seem to be a limiting factor on their movement. It is possible that the area where the elk habitual cross has a lower fence than right where Straigh Arrow posted.

Not many fences stop elk in my experience here in Montana. mtmuley

 

[Dakota79]

What is your biggest challenge on the landscape?

2-fold I guess; 1) It's really difficult to answer the questions many folks are interested in (e.g. what would a large bison herd with tons of space mean for a Great Plains grassland ecosystem?) because politics and logistics make it impossible to test. 2) It's really difficult to undertake big collaborative research/conservation projects because everyone is terrified to be seen working together with "the other side". Many conservation groups won't publicly work with anyone who is seen to be working with AP...etc. This is actually improving quickly but has been a longstanding issue.

What have been the biggest positive surprises?

The things preventing biodiversity and economic productivity from co-existing are not intractable, they're mainly driven by social/political inertia and fear of change, which are things we can all change and improve over time, many producers already are.

Any wolves discover the place yet? Grizzly bears?

There are absolutely Grizzly Bears regularly spending time in the Judith Landing area/western edge of the monument, probably denning. Also in the Bear's Paw Mts and at least occasionally in the N. Moccasins. Lots of rumors about animals in the CMR but I've not seen anything conclusive. As for wolves, transient young animals only as far as I know. Usually in winter and usually end up dead pretty quick.

What would you want the average citizen (mostly hunters here on HT) to know about the landscape that they might be surprised by?

The grassland ecosystem in that area is a crowned jewel globally. There are simply not many big tracts of mostly untilled temperate grassland left on earth. Comparable to Mongolian/Kazakh steppes. This area should be viewed with the reverence we have for the Bob Marshall/Glacier region, or the Everglades, or the Amazon. At the same time, this system has been altered so much and so fast since western expansion, we really need to try to remember what this landscape supported in terms of wildlife before 1800. We're not going back there, but as conservationists, we can certainly push to maximize the biodiversity of that landscape within the economic constraints of the ranching industry. Finally -- for the beef eaters. Choosing what sort of beef you eat is the difference between supporting a business that is stewarding a healthy and unique ecosystem while making a good living, and one that is responsible for some of the most ecologically destructive actions of any industry on earth. Get to know your rancher, choose wisely.

how can a guy research what sort of beef to buy? Ranchers that do this this and this as opposed to ranchers that do this this and this and what do we look for?

 

[Forkyfinder]

@OlWhitcombPlace thank you for coming to hunt talk.

Best member addition in a long time.