American prairie. What's the issue?

[BuzzH]

The Turners, Kroenkes, and Koch’s of this world don’t have any constraints other than how much they want to pay to limit how much they can pay. AP does. As far as being outbid neighboring ranchers aren’t limited either in what they could pay if they wanted to. The fact that a bank isn’t willing to finance their expansion isn’t the fault of AP.

In answer to your question, based on how I have seen AP steward the land and work with the public and their neighbors to allow grazing and access, I would far prefer them in my community than the aforementioned billionaires.

I live about 15 miles from one of Turner’s properties. He does a wonderful job of taking care of his property and I prefer it as it is rather than how it would have been developed if he hadn’t bought it, but I can’t freely access his property for recreation or access to public land other than a few trails where public easements were in place before he bought it. He doesn’t lease pastures for other ranchers to graze their cattle.

As far as being cooperative with the surrounding community within the parameters of the owners interest, AP seems to be way more accommodating than any billionaire owners I am aware of.

I know that AP can't pay more than market value, it just gets old listening to the uninformed whine about AP out biding other buyers. There is no way in hell that those complaining could afford even market value. The only folks AP would out bid, if they were able to, would be the ultra wealthy, lock it up types.

 

[Gerald Martin]

If I could afford fair market value of those properties, I’d be buying them….

Dang AP is outbidding me…

It’s analogous to if I went to the diner with $20 in my pocket and the last two hand cut ribeyes were on the menu for $35. Can I complain about the guys that came in and “outbid” me for them and I had to settle for a burger?

 

[Straight Arrow]

access to public land other than a few trails where public easements were in place before he bought it.

I'm not sure if easements are in place now, but they were not prior to Turner acquiring the Flying D. My wife and I attended the first public presentation by Ted Turner at MOR after he first purchased the ranch. He explained that he would allow continued use of the trails on the south end of the ranch, trails which are USFS trails but do pass through some of the Flyiing D Ranch. Turner also explained that he would allow access to his ranch for organized groups with specific programs, as long as they requested such access and provided information about a viable educational or research project. Flying D Ranch has continuously done so. Our little community Gateway Youth Group has continuously received grants from the Turner Foundation and annually in April is hosted at the ranch for the GYG Environmental Summit, an educational program for rural middle school students.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not sure if easements are in place now, but they were not prior to Turner acquiring the Flying D. My wife and I attended the first public presentation by Ted Turner at MOR after he first purchased the ranch. He explained that he would allow continued use of the trails on the south end of the ranch, trails which are USFS trails but did pass through some of the Flyiing D Ranch. Turner also explained that he would allow access to his ranch for organized groups with specific programs, as long as they requested such access and provided information about a viable educational or research project. Flying D Ranch has continuously done so. Our little community Gateway Youth Group has continuously received grants from the Turner Foundation and annually in April is hosted at the ranch for the GYG Environmental Summit, an educational program for rural middle school students.

The work I do for my day job, Turner has always let us on doing forest inventory work.

 

[SAJ-99]

If I could afford fair market value of those properties, I’d be buying them….

Dang AP is outbidding me…

It’s analogous to if I went to the diner with $20 in my pocket and the last two hand cut ribeyes were on the menu for $35. Can I complain about the guys that came in and “outbid” me for them and I had to settle for a burger?

Sounds my analogy of an "affordability" problem.

 

[Big Fin]

The "above fair market value" discussion is always slanted by the person complaining. They are accustomed to bidding against the BLM/DOI for such projects when being considered for purchase with Land & Water Conservation Fund dollars.

DOI has some very bad appraisal rules. They are to value the lands based on grazing revenues. They cannot give consideration of other values that are the main reasons a lot of buyers pay the price they do, such as recreation, ability to lock up other lands, etc.

The end result is a DOI appraisal is not market value. It is a restricted use valuation, which is always lower than a true fair market valuation, often way lower.

That is often what people are complaining about when they say "inflated" prices. Really what they are complaining about is not "inflated" prices, rather prices that reflect the true market value when all aspects of property rights are considered beyond just the restricted use valuation that DOI is required to use.

Many of us have tried to get Congress to reform the DOI appraisals rules, as it takes BLM/USFWS out of any discussion, even if a seller has some interest in public access. Who is usually opposed to those efforts to reform the DOI appraisal rules? The groups that represent the ag industry.

In spite of the talk I always hear about socialism, communism, favoritism, these groups don't want a true market appraisal. They want a restricted value appraisal that benefits their members, which is what these groups are expected to do.

That said, even with my interest in a strong and vibrant ag industry, the idea that AP causes "inflated" valuations is BS. It results in a true market value, to the benefit of the seller unconfined by government appraisal rules designed to benefit a smaller group.

 

[Nunjagottam]

Lets just get real for a moment on the whole "outbid" nonsense.

Is it a bad thing that AP could outbid the other potential buyers? The people that complain about being outbid by AP will never even be in the conversation about buying a large property.

Is it such a bad thing if AP were to outbid Ted Turner, Stan Kroenke, or the Koch Brothers?

This ^^
I was getting quite the dad talk from some members on the BLM grazing thread for my callous disposition toward the "endangered cowboys".
I stand by my position, ranchers need to be better businessman, if APR out bids them under the confines of their non-profit status so be it. I'd much rather APR (or another public minded conservation group) take control of these ranches as they turn over, than another UPOM exclusionist who will ultimately lobby for preferential tag allocation for themselves or their partners on their newly purchased elk ranc....err cattle operation.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This ^^
I was getting quite the dad talk from some members on the BLM grazing thread for my callous disposition toward the "endangered cowboys".
I stand by my position, ranchers need to be better businessman, if APR out bids them under the confines of their non-profit status so be it. I'd much rather APR (or another public minded conservation group) take control of these ranches as they turn over, than another UPOM exclusionist who will ultimately lobby for preferential tag allocation for themselves or their partners on their newly purchased elk ranc....err cattle operation.

Oh yeah? What about all those times that AP has sent their lobbyists to FWP commission meetings asking for increases in bull elk permits in their districts so they can sell outfitted hunts to help them offset the costs of public wildlife on their property. I can think of lots and lots of times that they have tried to get more tags allocated on lands they own and control access to. ****

(The previous paragraph is completely facetious and has no factual basis. However, it would be 100% fair and accurate if I had substituted UPOM for AP)

 

[BuzzH]

My opinion is that AP tries wayyyyy too hard to be awesome neighbors with, well their neighbors.

I fully admit that there is no way I would take the high road like they do when they're bad mouthed by the legislature, governor, BLM, UPOM etc. Even though they allow access on their deeded ground, tons of access to public through their ground, it's also disappointing the level of contempt they get from wayyyy too many "sportsmen".

Again, I'm glad they take the high road, because if I read some of the comments that hunters claim about AP, I'd say #$@-it and lock up access. Give them something to actually complain about.

 

[Big Fin]

Wonder if it is a win for Montana Sportsmen, or Fish, or Wildlife?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Wonder if it is a win for Montana Sportsmen, or Fish, or Wildlife?

I don't think so. It seems only a "win" politically for UPOM and followers, as well as for the anti-bison grazing lease Montana Governor, the wealthiest governor in the USA, a state official whose nose should not be stuck in the issue in the first place.

My recommendation to counter the stinking politics is to Bundy-like graze the bison anyhow and test the enforcement waters of BLM Montana!
However, it's apparent that AP has much more integrity than I.

 

[birdseye]

I don't think so. It seems only a "win" politically for UPOM and followers, as well as for the anti-bison grazing lease Montana Governor, the wealthiest governor in the USA, a state official whose nose should not be stuck in the issue in the first place.

My recommendation to counter the stinking politics is to Bundy-like graze the bison anyhow and test the enforcement waters of BLM Montana!
However, it's apparent that AP has much more integrity than I.

you know, actually a good point. Bundy was 86'd off public lands how many years ago? 10. 11, 12? The cattle are still there and Bundy is paying the grazing fee of 'on the house' Would the same BLM gather up the Buffs off Montana public lands? They might not

 

[mtmuley]

Why does APR need additional land for their bison herd? mtmuley

 

[Straight Arrow]

Why does APR need additional land for their bison herd? mtmuley

To expand the herd(s) and to rotate grazing, just as Turner and other viably successful bison ranchers do.

 

[mtmuley]

To expand the herd(s) and to rotate grazing, just as Turner and other viably successful bison ranchers do.

Well, If they want the herds keep them on APR. They don't jump fences right? mtmuley

 

[Straight Arrow]

Well, If they want the herds keep them on APR. mtmuley

They do and with denial of adjacent grazing lands that have been part and parcel to the properties they have acquired for decades, likely it will provide greater impetus to purchase more properties.

Also the likelihood is that the thousands of cattle already grazing on AP leases will increase in numbers and perhaps at a less expensive rate ... which will really aggravate UPOM.
The BLM leases will continue to be for "cattle only."

 

[Straight Arrow]

They don't jump fences right?

Correct. They can ... they just don't.

 

[mtmuley]

Correct.

I don't care if they jump fences or not. Has there been any research into what the free ranging bison herds impact will be on deer and elk in that country? mtmuley

 

[Straight Arrow]

I don't care if they jump fences or not. Has there been any research into what the free ranging bison herds impact will be on deer and elk in that country? mtmuley

I'm not privy to it, but with all the wildlife research ongoing since the beginning of AP, it's likely you can find some information. Likewise, Turner bison ranches have wildlife biologists who work fulltime at wildlife management and analysis. A sizeable income is gained by the Turner Ranches from outfitting for deer and elk.

It's pretty common knowledge that the deer and elk herds have not been adversely effected at either bison area.

 

[mtmuley]

I'm not privy to it, but with all the wildlife research ongoing since the beginning of AP, it's likely you can find some information. Likewise, Turner bison ranches have wildlife biologists who work fulltime at wildlife management and analysis. A sizeable income is gained by the Turner Ranches from outfitting for deer and elk.

It's pretty common knowledge that the deer and elk herds have not been adversely effected at either bison area.

Where is the common knowledge? This is relatively new. Just have to think it might affect other game species. mtmuley