A growing problem

[Hunting Wife]

I remember in elementary school, we had this big contest in our school district to design a playground for one of the city parks. It was cool. We drew our ideas, they picked a bunch and made some mock-ups, the kids at the schools got to vote. Then they built it. It was the neatest place ever to go and play on that huge fort creation we made.

Now, the park is overrun with homeless. There are syringes and condoms and balloons all over the playground. People live in the playground fort we designed. It’s unusable. I certainly can’t take my nieces and nephew there. It isn’t safe to walk or bike the bike path along the creek. There are regularly assaults and even murders just among the homeless population in the park. Arson is a problem. I’ve been accosted multiple times near the park by very aggressive panhandlers- to the point I thought one guy was going to punch me because I didn’t have money to give him. I was barely out of high school. I haven’t been back in years…my parents tell me it has only gotten worse.

I get that some, maybe most, of these people have mental issues and other struggles. They are sons and daughters, brothers and sisters. But I have a problem with just ceding public spaces to become free-for-all’s of illegal behavior, and the general citizenry in the area fearing for their personal safety. I don’t know what the best answer is, but there has to be some sort of balance between helping people and maintaining some sense of law and order. I certainly lean more towards nipping things in the bud in Montana based on my experiences in my hometown.

 

[longbow51]

My preferred flavor is not pretending to be a subject matter expert in something I've only seen news snippets of

Unless its Ukraine. Then we're all experts.

 

[mtmuley]

look at colorado, it used to be great but the instant they legalized weed it went down the tubes.

So weed increased homelessness? mtmuley

 

[longbow51]

On a more positive note, just remembered when ordering some presents that the sock company Bombas (with whom I have zero affiliation) is having a sale right now, and for every pair sold, they donate one pair (made even stronger, according to them) to homeless shelters.

These are not hunting socks, just running/everyday.

 

[Redmt]

So weed increased homelessness? mtmuley

No but it would dull the perception of the hole your trying to exist in.

 

[220yotekiller]

So weed increased homelessness? mtmuley

no just in general...not to much homelessness where l was from.

 

[Boarmaster]

I would like to see more development like they had after WW2. Very small but livable and expandable homes on a small but descent sized lot. People bought these small homes then added garages and expanded them on their lot as they needed for their growing family. It would be better in my opinion than developing multi family apartments and trailer parks. Not only would they be good for 1st time home buyer but also for empty nesters and older folks who want to down size.

 

[Nameless Range]

I have not read all of the previous 7 pages, but a book I read last year was Michael Shellenberger's SanFransicko - the chief topic of which is homelessness. I found it compelling.

Homelessness is chiefly an issue of drug use and mental health issues. It is not a function of high cost of living typically, though folks like to think it is. One reason I do not hold out much hope for the issue to get better is one side of the isle views the issue from a sort of pathological compassion, while the other won't have the stomach to spend the money required to deal with it.

Shellenberger makes the case that what we call homeless camps are actually just open-drug-scenes. He points to other countries that have dealt with this effectively, and some of the solutions involve:

-Free Mental Health Services: When he was running for G of CA he proposed a Dept of Mental Health.
-It must be illegal to do drugs in public
-Folks cannot be allowed to camp where ever.
-Housing is not a right, but shelter is.
-Sticks and carrots will be used to work toward housing
-The closer those afflicted with mental health and drug issues are to their families, the more likely they will be to succeed
-And more...

These are solutions that take money, but also tough love and rules not to be broken.

Personally I had an experience 2 summers ago. Bums moved in on Sunnyside Lane north of Clancy, Montana. It became known amongst their networks as a place to be all damn summer. Where local kids swam and fished and biked my entire life, all of a sudden was a bunch of drug users and shady F**ks leaving their feces and needles lying around. The land was actually within the interstate right of way. I called the area supervisor for MDT and bellyached about the situation. They then cleaned house, put up No Camping signs, and turned the Prickly Pear Creek access along that road into day use only. This last summer, kids and families once again utilized the area and no bums were to be found. I appreciated that response by State Government.

Folks look at such an example as kicking the can down the road. So be it. Kids, and the places they recreate, such as parks, get primacy in my mind over vagrants. Some places aren't appropriate for that chit.

 

[hank4elk]

I have not read all of the previous 7 pages, but a book I read last year was Michael Shellenberger's SanFransicko - the chief topic of which is homelessness. I found it compelling.

Homelessness is chiefly an issue of drug use and mental health issues. It is not a function of high cost of living typically, though folks like to think it is. One reason I do not hold out much hope for the issue to get better is one side of the isle views the issue from a sort of pathological compassion, while the other won't have the stomach to spend the money required to deal with it.

Shellenberger makes the case that what we call homeless camps are actually just open-drug-scenes. He points to other countries that have dealt with this effectively, and some of the solutions involve:

-Free Mental Health Services: When he was running for G of CA he proposed a Dept of Mental Health.
-It must be illegal to do drugs in public
-Folks cannot be allowed to camp where ever.
-Housing is not a right, but shelter is.
-Sticks and carrots will be used to work toward housing
-The closer those afflicted with mental health and drug issues are to their families, the more likely they will be to succeed
-And more...

These are solutions that take money, but also tough love and rules not to be broken.

Personally I had an experience 2 summers ago. Bums moved in on Sunnyside Lane north of Clancy, Montana. It became known amongst their networks as a place to be all damn summer. Where local kids swam and fished and biked my entire life, all of a sudden was a bunch of drug users and shady F**ks leaving their feces and needles lying around. The land was actually within the interstate right of way. I called the area supervisor for MDT and bellyached about the situation. They then cleaned house, put up No Camping signs, and turned the Prickly Pear Creek access along that road into day use only. This last summer, kids and families once again utilized the area and no bums were to be found. I appreciated that response by State Government.

Folks look at such an example as kicking the can down the road. So be it. Kids, and the places they recreate, such as parks, get primacy in my mind over vagrants. Some places aren't appropriate for that chit.

Agree.
20 years as a Park Ranger told me all I need to know about the homeless and this is not the hobos I was told to avoid in the 50's & 60's. They came by asking for work or just passing thru. And there was mental health as it was and such.
Also a fat person was an oddity, as was a lazy one.

 

[rjthehunter]

A simple way to depict the actual homeless from the addicts/idiots wouldn't cost much.

Give everyone 1k, then in a week go back through and ask everyone what they did with their money.

 

[Irrelevant]

I have not read all of the previous 7 pages, but a book I read last year was Michael Shellenberger's SanFransicko - the chief topic of which is homelessness. I found it compelling.

Homelessness is chiefly an issue of drug use and mental health issues. It is not a function of high cost of living typically, though folks like to think it is. One reason I do not hold out much hope for the issue to get better is one side of the isle views the issue from a sort of pathological compassion, while the other won't have the stomach to spend the money required to deal with it.

Shellenberger makes the case that what we call homeless camps are actually just open-drug-scenes. He points to other countries that have dealt with this effectively, and some of the solutions involve:

-Free Mental Health Services: When he was running for G of CA he proposed a Dept of Mental Health.
-It must be illegal to do drugs in public
-Folks cannot be allowed to camp where ever.
-Housing is not a right, but shelter is.
-Sticks and carrots will be used to work toward housing
-The closer those afflicted with mental health and drug issues are to their families, the more likely they will be to succeed
-And more...

These are solutions that take money, but also tough love and rules not to be broken.

Personally I had an experience 2 summers ago. Bums moved in on Sunnyside Lane north of Clancy, Montana. It became known amongst their networks as a place to be all damn summer. Where local kids swam and fished and biked my entire life, all of a sudden was a bunch of drug users and shady F**ks leaving their feces and needles lying around. The land was actually within the interstate right of way. I called the area supervisor for MDT and bellyached about the situation. They then cleaned house, put up No Camping signs, and turned the Prickly Pear Creek access along that road into day use only. This last summer, kids and families once again utilized the area and no bums were to be found. I appreciated that response by State Government.

Folks look at such an example as kicking the can down the road. So be it. Kids, and the places they recreate, such as parks, get primacy in my mind over vagrants. Some places aren't appropriate for that chit.

Interesting, seems like a lot of data out there doesn't support those conclusions.

CoC Homeless Populations and Subpopulations Reports

www.hudexchange.info

 

[FairWeather]

I favor an upstream approach. Apply the funding and resources towards keeping people from losing their homes in the first place.
More affordable/govt subsidized housing, and end single family home zonings and dwelling sqFt minimums.
More rent and utility assistance.
More mental health workers.
More employment services.
More access to family planning and contraception resources.
Medical debt assistance and/or forgiveness.

It’s far easier to prevent people from landing on the street than it is to get them off the street.

I would also like to see proof of residency in the state required to receive aid of any kind. We have a problem with homeless people flocking here because of how “help”much we hand out.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Personally I had an experience 2 summers ago. Bums moved in on Sunnyside Lane north of Clancy, Montana. It became known amongst their networks as a place to be all damn summer. Where local kids swam and fished and biked my entire life, all of a sudden was a bunch of drug users and shady F**ks leaving their feces and needles lying around. The land was actually within the interstate right of way. I called the area supervisor for MDT and bellyached about the situation. They then cleaned house, put up No Camping signs, and turned the Prickly Pear Creek access along that road into day use only. This last summer, kids and families once again utilized the area and no bums were to be found. I appreciated that response by State Government.

Folks look at such an example as kicking the can down the road. So be it. Kids, and the places they recreate, such as parks, get primacy in my mind over vagrants. Some places aren't appropriate for that chit.

This. We can debate cause and correlations to no end. If you don't want it your community and it starts small, nip it immediately!

 

[Redmt]

This. We can debate cause and correlations to no end. If you don't want it your community and it starts small, nip it immediately!

Yep, they don't gather 100 at a time.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Interesting, seems like a lot of data out there doesn't support those conclusions.

CoC Homeless Populations and Subpopulations Reports

www.hudexchange.info

View attachment 250621

Maybe, going forward we should differentiate between the sub groups of homeless. I do not think those disagreeing with you have a problem helping victims of abuse, families priced out, or other hitting hard times type of stories. The "problem" homeless as described by nameless range are similar across the country, most notable in CA. It's the ones that flock to a certain area to take advantage of access to drugs, handouts, and laxed law enforcement. Word gets out and the population swells. These people do not want to utilize shelters with rules. They instead choose street life with all the community damage that accompanies it. These types of camps in wildlife areas, parks, creeks, greenways, and playgrounds are where I have the most experience and interaction with people. My opinions are from 14 years of contacts and conversations with this "type" of homelessness.
Don't get me wrong I'm well aware of the others in need and in a bad situation for a variety of reasons. Hopefully, they find shelter and assistance.
I think it's pretty clear which group causes considerable damage to others, and which is in need of help.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

A simple way to depict the actual homeless from the addicts/idiots wouldn't cost much.

Give everyone 1k, then in a week go back through and ask everyone what they did with their money.

Bro glass house

Constructive Stimulus Check Debate

Uncle Joe sent me a present today. Please debate in a respectful and constructive manner. The shotgun in question is a Benelli M2 12 ga in the Sitka marsh pattern with cerakote.

www.hunttalk.com

 

[Irrelevant]

Maybe, going forward we should differentiate between the sub groups of homeless. I do not think those disagreeing with you have a problem helping victims of abuse, families priced out, or other hitting hard times type of stories. The "problem" homeless as described by nameless range are similar across the country, most notable in CA. It's the ones that flock to a certain area to take advantage of access to drugs, handouts, and laxed law enforcement. Word gets out and the population swells. These people do not want to utilize shelters with rules. They instead choose street life with all the community damage that accompanies it. These types of camps in wildlife areas, parks, creeks, greenways, and playgrounds are where I have the most experience and interaction with people. My opinions are from 14 years of contacts and conversations with this "type" of homelessness.
Don't get me wrong I'm well aware of the others in need and in a bad situation for a variety of reasons. Hopefully, they find shelter and assistance.
I think it's pretty clear which group causes considerable damage to others, and which is in need of help.

I get so friggin' sick of people making homelessness a black and white issue. It has so many shades of grey you can't even see them all.

San Fransicko Is Incorrect About Housing Affordability and Homelessness | Benioff Homelessness and Housing Initiative

The popular book suggests that substance use, mental illness and moral permissiveness are more to blame for California's homelessness crisis than housing unaffordability. But that argument is based on flawed reasoning and a misunderstanding of the available evidence.

homelessness.ucsf.edu

 

[BucksnDucks]

I get so friggin' sick of people making homelessness a black and white issue. It has so many shades of grey you can't even see them all.

San Fransicko Is Incorrect About Housing Affordability and Homelessness | Benioff Homelessness and Housing Initiative

The popular book suggests that substance use, mental illness and moral permissiveness are more to blame for California's homelessness crisis than housing unaffordability. But that argument is based on flawed reasoning and a misunderstanding of the available evidence.

homelessness.ucsf.edu

Okay, we've beat this one to death. I agree it is not black and white, hell I even suggested sub groups. I also think it's foolish to overlook the glaring similarities found in homeless camps all over the state.
Maybe Washington has something else going on. But for CA I'll believe what I see with my eyes and hear from the people living the life up and down the state, not the opinion of UCSF. Come down to Northern CA sometime, I'll give you a tour. Maybe we could even catch some steelhead right next to a big camp on the river.

 

[hank4elk]

...back in 1978 when the interest rate was 12% ,I bought a 10 ac place with a little house and well. $10k. Had it paid off in 5 years.
The difference was I worked one good paying job and could make more but got raises and I could walk to ten other carpentry jobs the next day.
Loyalty paid off, for 6 years. then the boss got big britches and an attitude and a new migrate crew. Because he could.
I walked and became a Park Ranger and I live off the small pension I get today. Even got another 3% COLA this year.

Folks these days have 3 jobs and don't make a living wage. or they are assholes like that boss and make all the $ they want and don't p[ay taxes.

I hope I don't run into either now. Living in my own old world.

 

[Nameless Range]

Interesting, seems like a lot of data out there doesn't support those conclusions.

CoC Homeless Populations and Subpopulations Reports

www.hudexchange.info

View attachment 250621

I don’t think it is black and white at all and don't mean to come off that way. A portion of Schellenberger’s book(s), and certainly the titles, are meant to be inflammatory – read bait. That said, my take on the tenor of that book was a bit different than what I sense the critiques make it out to be. Part of that is Schellenberger’s blind spots, and part of it is a predictable reaction to his prodding.

If I read those charts correctly, he’s not wrong that the two leading causes of chronic homelessness are mental health issues and substance abuse issues. Critics of his claim would say that unaffordable housing just exacerbates that issue, and I think there is truth to that. Also, categorizing people like that doesn't capture the overlap or I'm sure, tell the whole tale. Both he, and sometimes his critics, seem to be engaged in the highlighting of a lot of correlations. I don’t see specifically though, how both things are incompatible insofar as being contributors. I won’t strongly argue in any way which is the chief driver. It's confusing to me.

There are a large pile of substantive critiques out there of this book. Something I appreciated about his book though, whether his thesis is focused on the wrong thing, is he says what many, including myself, say: “We cannot permit people to behave in certain ways in public and we must prohibit them from doing so (public camping, drug use, free roaming excrement, etc). I agree with this strongly. But as his critics point out, so many just leave it at that. He takes it a step further and proposes a solution. One that, he argues, has components far more achievable than affordable housing, a problem which, as his detractors fairly point out, has a lot of systemic and political inertia aligned against it.

On a side note, I do think that when it comes to homeless folks, our anecdotal experiences and perception of the issue probably does over-focus on the mentally ill and drug addled. They are the ones who cause more friction in our lives – approaching you downtown, trying to break into your buildings, filling your local swimming hole with needles. And so overestimating their signal becomes easy, and we forget about all the others – the youth, parents who can’t afford a home, those fleeing domestic violence, etc.

Ultimately, when I think loftily, this country is sick, and that’s a much larger subject than homelessness, which is only a symptom.

Thanks for the links.