9 Days In Wyoming...
- Thread starter EliAGrimmett
- Start date
We're going to have to talk some day about how you do this.I've watched the video several times, but I think there's more to it. Congrats on a couple of true smokers!
So oak, you saying you may have passed up bucks that you now doubt?
EliAGrimmett
Member
We're going to have to talk some day about how you do this.
We'll talk whenever you want, but I can give you the best advice in the world right now and it may or may not help you. You ready for it? Here it is:
"You can't shoot a big one if you shoot a little one."
That's it - that's the gist of our whole hunting philosophy. It totally goes against the grain of some hunters philosophy, the crowd that says, "Never pass up on the first day something that you'd shoot on the last day." Our philosophy is more along the lines of, "If you're considering passing up the buck to begin with you shouldn't be shooting the buck on any day, including the last day."
Most hunters, it seems, even the guys hunting Wyoming, seem to be more concerned with actually killing an antelope, then they do with holding out for a good one. They either panic or have limited amounts of time (understandable to an extent) or just get tired of looking at tiny antelope and figure they aren't going to find anything better.
My buck we never even saw until the 6th day of the hunt! On day 5 we were figuring we weren't going to find anything better than what we had already found, like most hunters after scouring an area for that long, but since we weren't interested in shooting mediocre bucks we really didn't give much thought to sticking around for a little bit longer just to "see" what might show up - hoping to get lucky. And we did get lucky in a big way!
I've actually been trying to figure out exactly how we do what we've done for a lot of this year and I've been thinking of putting together a book on it. I used to believe that most of a trophy antelope hunters success came from being able to properly field judge (hence the video "Size Is Everything"), but lately I'm starting to believe that a large part of it may be the mental side of things.
Who knows, maybe I'm talking gibberish...
Gibberish is the language of many Hunt Talkers, especially on the pronghorn thread, so we are following along with your logic, quite well.
Makes sense to me, Eli. Unless time is a huge constraint, as it often is, I know the biggest bucks I have killed, were all after three or four days of scouting and looking.
Not filling your tag is seldom a concern in an antelope hunt, and if you don't fill your tag, no biggie. It means you got to spend your allotted time looking for Hank the Tank, which is more fun than most anything I can think of.
I think this is what I'm most guilty of. I found my buck on the 5th day of looking this year. He was the best I had seen, and I decided that I probably wasn't going to find anything better.
I agree with that wholeheartedly. I often worry that I am under-judging bucks and letting 85"ers walk. It's mostly because I see guys post photos of bucks on line that look a lot smaller than the given score. Your dad's buck, for example. I probably wouldn't have guessed that buck to be more than 80" by looking at the two photos, but I know your score is accurate. The truth is though, I've been within one inch on the last three bucks that I've field judged and then got to ground check. I'm hoping that my judging is accurate and that I'm just not seeing big bucks.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
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- Dec 19, 2000
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WOW! Those are some awesome goats! Congrats! You can't expect to do better than that on a hunt for antelope anywhere, much less in Wyoming.
I agree with the mental thing and goats. When you really look at a lot of them, you can start second guessing what they are, and which one you should try for. I honestly was thinking the buck I shot in MT this year was going to likely be a case of ground shrinkage. I shot a 12incher yesterday afternoon in South Dakota, probably the smallest pronghorn I've ever taken with horns but it was a great hunt and I saw some nice bucks, but paniced on a last ditch stalk and pulled the trigger on the wrong buck in the group as they were making a hasty getaway. I didn't cry - honest.
I agree with the mental thing and goats. When you really look at a lot of them, you can start second guessing what they are, and which one you should try for. I honestly was thinking the buck I shot in MT this year was going to likely be a case of ground shrinkage. I shot a 12incher yesterday afternoon in South Dakota, probably the smallest pronghorn I've ever taken with horns but it was a great hunt and I saw some nice bucks, but paniced on a last ditch stalk and pulled the trigger on the wrong buck in the group as they were making a hasty getaway.
I didn't cry - honest.
fowladdict
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,545
Congrats on a great hunt. Love the prongs on your buck. Kind of looks like you transplanted the NM long prong buck into wyoming. I have to say tho, your pictures and scores on those bucks just made judging pronghorn harder for me.
Outdooraddict
Active member
Those are great bucks... but I can't get over over your picture and avatar- you must practice that pose a lot.
EliAGrimmett
Member
I try.
We try.
Seriously, though, we thought Leonardo was about 85+ when we first saw him and then lowered our score on each subsequent viewing until we were calling him "just" an 82 to 83 inch buck. Both of our bucks had bodies and heads so big that we were fooled a little bit on the field judging. We're used to looking at NM and AZ bucks with dainty heads and bodies that make their horns look bigger. Which is why you have to know the area you're hunting to make more accurate guesses.Most hunters are. I'm thinking that the most effective solution to this problem is to scout extensively. If you know what you're going to do when you locate any given buck during the hunt it makes it so you're not making rushed and emotional decisions. Extensive scouting will also help you to know whether or not you're pulling the trigger too soon.
Here's a problem I see a lot and my answer to this one isn't going to make anything easier for you. We were accused a long time ago of making up the scores in our ads because everyone thought the bucks in the ads looked a lot smaller than we said they were. There are many problems here:
1. Pictures can be deceiving. Everyone knows this and yet they're still quick to assume that you're lying about the score.
2. Most hunters believe (still to this day as far as I can tell) that a record book buck or an 85 inch buck (or whatever big number you want) is a mythical thing! They think that these types of bucks are much larger than they actually are. Case in point - we saw over 20 record book heads out of about 60 total bucks in a unit in AZ this year. This unit had enough book bucks for every single person with a tag to kill one. The problem is that not one of the hunters is going to scout this unit and believe to themselves that there were really this many book heads - they're going to underscore nearly all of them because they believe that book heads are bigger than they are.
3. Not only do a lot of hunters believe book heads are bigger than they are, they also either don't know how to field judge them (or score them from photos) or are too "afraid" of over-scoring the bucks. Now, personally, I could care less if I over-score or under-score a buck on my own hunt (or my Dad's or Sister's, etc.), but as a guide I try not to ever over-score a buck - it would be tragic (in my mind) to potentially "ruin" someone else's hunt. This is why I practice so hard at field judging.
Awesome!
I'll try to get some more photos sized down to post. I took all the photos in RAW this year, so sometimes it takes me longer than it should to get them online (I get lazy sometimes about this - just stay on my butt and I'll get it done).
One more thing - click on the link in my signature! I just got the NEW site up and running today. It's .NET now. Not sure if that will throw anyone off or not. Check it out and give me your feedback on my blog (the blog is now part of the website). Let me know what you like, don't like, etc. It's a work in progress so not everything is super refined just yet.
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Oak, this is what worries me about the V buck.
This is a major problem, and I think it can even happen when comparing bucks in the same area. I saw a post on another forum yesterday with two dead bucks. By glancing at the field photos, they looked about the same size to me. Then they had a photo of the two bucks laying together and one of them looked to be about 20% bigger in body and horns!
I know this, and I'll never accuse someone of lying based on a photo.
Very true. It doesn't take much to go from a big buck to a huge buck. Underestimate every measurement by 1/4" and your buck grows 3". Then wait 60 days and he's back to what you estimated.
The new website looks great. Clean and uncluttered.
Congrats Eli and Tony... nice bucks.
That's the first time I've ever seen Eli give a score without being 1/16th of being on the money. What's with the range? Now I call BS.... or you're starting to slack.
Again though - nice bucks guys!
cmc
That's the first time I've ever seen Eli give a score without being 1/16th of being on the money. What's with the range?
Now I call BS.... or you're starting to slack. Again though - nice bucks guys!
cmc
IdahoBugler
Well-known member
Great bucks Eli and dad. Like everyone said I would have never guessed your bucks for that big. But knowing what I know from my little bucks from Wyoming is they are hard to judge. It's almost impossible to score from pictures.
Thanks for the great advise on lope hunting. Pretty cool to get info like that.
Thanks for the great advise on lope hunting. Pretty cool to get info like that.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
Eli
Do you guys ever chase anything other than lope? Or with this much gusto?
Do you guys ever chase anything other than lope? Or with this much gusto?
Mass!
Mass makes up a great chunk of horned game score. One of the secrets to judging antelope is figuring out mass measurements! If you can't field judge mass..you are screwed..especially in Wyo where there are almost 0 bucks that ever make it over the 15 3/4" horn length mark! From my experience with Wyo bucks I would never have guessed Eli and his dad's buck's to score as high as they do but possibly the mass may "hide" some of the measurements. As an example, I would have guessed Eli's buck's prongs to be around 6 1/2" but the massive horns may hide the additional length of the prong? It would be interesting to get a photo of Eli's buck's horns with a tape along the prong and both sides of the bases so we can get a feel for the mass and prong length.
Also, the side view of Eli's buck doesn't seem to show exactly how massive his buck is? I am pretty sure I saw a frontal shot of his buck on his website and you can see in that photo that his bucks horns are roundish rather than spayed? His buck definitely looks a lot more massive from the front!
Obviously it helps to get several angles and views. The frontal photo of Elis buck looks like his buck is only about 15" max to me...but that may be the angle of the photo and again the mass may hide exactly how long the horns are? It is often pretty tough to judge from photos and I would definitely agree that both buck's photos don't do their actual scores justice!
Most guys sit about 5 feet behind their animals for picture taking and this usually makes the animal's horns look "relatively" huge! Eli and his dad are along side their antelope so this may be why they don't look as big as they really are? Also, the photos were taken even with the head which sometimes distorts the actual size of the horns. An animal's horns will look a lot bigger if the camera is set up from below and photo taken upward!
I don't happen to agree with what was said about booner bucks looking mediocre! Every 82+" buck I have ever seen in Wyoming has looked unbelievably humungous! If there is ever a question whether a buck will make B&C then it probably won't...but every booner buck I have ever laid eyes on while in Wyoming there has been no doubt in my mind! This may be a little different in AZ and NM where horn confirmation may be a little different? Obviously if you look at enough bucks the giant ones jump out at you..for mass, prongs, etc. As mentioned earlier it may take 1 to 2 weeks of hunting to find a buck like that...and some units may never produce a B&C buck!
Anyway, congrads again Eli and your dad on 2 World Class bucks! You picked a great year to hunt Wyo! I have seen more massive bucks this year than quite a few years in the past combined...all the stars must have aligned just right!
Mass makes up a great chunk of horned game score. One of the secrets to judging antelope is figuring out mass measurements! If you can't field judge mass..you are screwed..especially in Wyo where there are almost 0 bucks that ever make it over the 15 3/4" horn length mark! From my experience with Wyo bucks I would never have guessed Eli and his dad's buck's to score as high as they do but possibly the mass may "hide" some of the measurements. As an example, I would have guessed Eli's buck's prongs to be around 6 1/2" but the massive horns may hide the additional length of the prong? It would be interesting to get a photo of Eli's buck's horns with a tape along the prong and both sides of the bases so we can get a feel for the mass and prong length.
Also, the side view of Eli's buck doesn't seem to show exactly how massive his buck is? I am pretty sure I saw a frontal shot of his buck on his website and you can see in that photo that his bucks horns are roundish rather than spayed? His buck definitely looks a lot more massive from the front!
Obviously it helps to get several angles and views. The frontal photo of Elis buck looks like his buck is only about 15" max to me...but that may be the angle of the photo and again the mass may hide exactly how long the horns are? It is often pretty tough to judge from photos and I would definitely agree that both buck's photos don't do their actual scores justice!
Most guys sit about 5 feet behind their animals for picture taking and this usually makes the animal's horns look "relatively" huge! Eli and his dad are along side their antelope so this may be why they don't look as big as they really are? Also, the photos were taken even with the head which sometimes distorts the actual size of the horns. An animal's horns will look a lot bigger if the camera is set up from below and photo taken upward!
I don't happen to agree with what was said about booner bucks looking mediocre! Every 82+" buck I have ever seen in Wyoming has looked unbelievably humungous! If there is ever a question whether a buck will make B&C then it probably won't...but every booner buck I have ever laid eyes on while in Wyoming there has been no doubt in my mind! This may be a little different in AZ and NM where horn confirmation may be a little different? Obviously if you look at enough bucks the giant ones jump out at you..for mass, prongs, etc. As mentioned earlier it may take 1 to 2 weeks of hunting to find a buck like that...and some units may never produce a B&C buck!
Anyway, congrads again Eli and your dad on 2 World Class bucks! You picked a great year to hunt Wyo! I have seen more massive bucks this year than quite a few years in the past combined...all the stars must have aligned just right!
EliAGrimmett
Member
And yet you would have called my buck 15 long with a 6 4/8 prong and not nearly as much mass as it had. Hm...that almost proves my point.
I didn't mean to say that book bucks look mediocre. What I meant was more like this; if a hunter goes to a unit for the first time and the first buck he sees he thinks is 82 that's all good. Then the next buck he sees looks exactly the same. Fine, too. But then every single buck he sees, 20 bucks total, all look exactly like the first one. This is not good in most hunters minds because most hunters won't believe that every buck they saw is really 82 and then they start to lower their scores and start believing that maybe all the bucks are really just mediocre.
About the photos: We do everything kind of opposite of what you'd expect for making the bucks look bigger than they are. We sit right next to them, we try to take them around eye level (of the animal if possible) and we also (at least I do) use a very long lens and take the photos from a distance but zoomed in. We've found that taking the photos in this way will lead to the least amount of distortion in, not only your face, but the animals horns. We could easily take the photos to make the bucks look ridiculously big, but I'd rather have more accurate looking pics (and less distortion makes me look prettier!
)Thanks for compliments on our bucks! And for checking out the new website!
