Well if they want to move the results to match w residents in June then they should also move the app deadline to match. I get all the issues that have been mentioned w having the draw before season,tag numbers etc have been approved. To me, if u keep the app period early, we as NR are still in the dark about possible changes or tag allocations or new hunts? Or the example of unit 45 that has been mentioned before about potentially doing away w the archery season for type 1 hunters and ppl had already applied. It does make sense to move it till after all seasons etc have been met. It’s simple just move the app period up to match w residents? Is there any real reason not to? Am I missing something? Or is it just because the WYOGA doesn’t want that strictly for their benefit? I mean what is the disadvantage for the commission to move the app deadline for NR till after they set Quotos etc ?
Wyoming Elk Draw Proposed
- Thread starter icebreaker12
- Start date
D
Deleted member 18333
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My honest opinion is that nobody thought that much about it. A lot of decisions are made without fully thinking the issue through. I think that is the most likely answer. I also don't think it would take that much effort to get it changes in the future to exactly what you stated.
npaden
Well-known member
In the grand scheme of things this will most likely cost the state a small amount of license revenue, but not enough to even notice.
As Buzz has said the 7,250 tag limit has been reached every year for a long time. They hit that limit by giving it to "Special" general licenses. If this ends up with more LQ tags being issued, at least some of those will be "Regular" priced licenses. In the grand scheme of things I doubt we are talking about more than 20 or 30 licenses switching from Special to Regular but that is actually the most likely result of the change. WapitiBob is the expert, but generally there are about 100 additional Special General Licenses that are issued to get to the 7,250 number each year.
As far as having any tags dropping all the way down to where residents get them, as mentioned earlier it would take several thousand people dropping Wyoming from their application calendar. Most likely isn't going to happen anytime soon.
I would for sure agree with the quote above that a lot of decisions were made without fully thinking the issue through. I don't have the same optimism that future changes will be in order to fix them though.
As Buzz has said the 7,250 tag limit has been reached every year for a long time. They hit that limit by giving it to "Special" general licenses. If this ends up with more LQ tags being issued, at least some of those will be "Regular" priced licenses. In the grand scheme of things I doubt we are talking about more than 20 or 30 licenses switching from Special to Regular but that is actually the most likely result of the change. WapitiBob is the expert, but generally there are about 100 additional Special General Licenses that are issued to get to the 7,250 number each year.
As far as having any tags dropping all the way down to where residents get them, as mentioned earlier it would take several thousand people dropping Wyoming from their application calendar. Most likely isn't going to happen anytime soon.
I would for sure agree with the quote above that a lot of decisions were made without fully thinking the issue through. I don't have the same optimism that future changes will be in order to fix them though.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Now that everyone is done speculating, making guesses, etc. I'll explain in detail how all this happened and why.
Myself and a few others were asked by many within the Department to look at moving the early elk draw to the same time as the Resident draw. So, myself and JM77 started to look into things and what problems the early NR elk draw were causing. The main complaint we were hearing from the Department was a need to produce what they called the "packet", which was early guesses on quotas for the early NR elk draw. Not only did this cause an unnecessary meeting that the wildlife division had to do, it also was PRIOR to harvest statistics being known, classifications, and herd numbers...not to mention winter kill. There were still elk seasons going on by the end of the NR application period.
Jeff and I dug into things a bit more and discovered that other problems were: 1. Quotas changing after the season setting commission meeting. 2. Some seasons NR were not even allowed to apply for because they weren't being offered LQ tags on new seasons approved in April. 3. Any regulation changes as a result of the early draw, couldn't be changed until the following season because tags had already been issued (example was the department/commission having to allow archery hunters to hunt any bull during archery season on a unit 100 spike only tag, another would be the 45 type 1 tag mentioned above).
So, Jeff and I began the process and approached the Department and started the ball rolling. We asked, then Director Talbot, if we could get the data, in a report, for the license allocation for the current year to see how many tags that either NR or R's were being ripped off on because of the early draw. Honestly, we had no idea because it just wasn't easy to track. But, what we did know is that somebody wasn't getting their allocation of tags. Talbot had the license division run the report and when Jeff and I looked at it, we realized that Residents were getting ripped out of about 300 LQ licenses required by regulation/statute. In other words, residents weren't getting their 84% allotment of LQ licenses. That was a surprise. The bigger surprise is when I was contacted by the second in command at the WYGF to help come up with a solution. I met with the person in question in Cheyenne and was told that the Department would issue the balance of LQ licenses so that the 84% resident requirement was met. My first concern was the health of the herd, and I told the GF person, "Look, if issuing those additional tags is going to have any kind of a negative impact on the elk herds, this conversation will never leave this room and I'll drop it right now". I didn't want to see any damage done to the resource trying to make things fair...has to be about the resource first. I was assured from this person, that because of WY's world class elk management, there was no harm that would come from the additional 300 tags. So, with no thanks from anyone, that season, 300 residents were recipients of LQ elk tags they wouldn't have gotten without the work of a handful of Department people, Jeff, and myself.
So, in an attempt to address this from happening again, Jeff worked with the office in Casper and some other GF folks and came up with a "patch" that would keep the 84-16 split closer. They came up with the Resident portion being 84% of the commission approved quota. This kept the number of tags either issued to R or NR a lot closer to what the actual splits would/should be.
In the meantime, we've been working with the Commission to just move the draw date to the same time as the Resident draw. It makes sense for all the reasons I already listed, saves the "packet" meeting, clears up a potential conflict of tags being issued before the commission approves them, makes the splits based on actual approved quotas rather than a guess, give biologists time to set seasons based on their classification data, harvest statistics, and population estimates and time to adjust for things like winter kill, cost savings of having one draw, etc.
The only downside I'm seeing right now is what others are complaining about, and that's the application deadline of January 31 and not knowing until June. That doesn't make sense and is 100% the outfitters driving this. So, I would recommend that when comments are sent, keep in mind the upside of why this change is necessary. Just ask for the NR application dates to be the same as the Resident draw dates. No need to bash the commission/department about money, residents wanting more tags, all that crap.
Finally, the way this is going to benefit NR's in the full price draw:
1. You'll get to hunt every season/tag approved by the commission.
2. The Resident draw happens first for LQ tags. Any LQ tags not drawn by residents will fall to the NR portion of the draw (including type 4 tags). Sure, that will mean less general tags to reach the balance of 7250, but you'll get more LQ tags potentially.
3. The big change will be that all the type 6 and 7 tags, not drawn by residents in the initial draw, will go to the NR side of the initial draw. Meaning that if R's don't have their chit together and list 2nd and 3rd choices, nonresidents are going to get first crack at those. Anything remaining after the NR draw will go to the second draw and then of course to the first come first serve.
This is really a no-brainer if you're interested in doing what's best for the department, the herds, and both R and NR elk hunters...
Jeff, myself, and mulecreek have spent a lot of time working on this one to get it right...final piece of the puzzle will be allowing NR's to apply, or at the very least modify their apps, until the end of May same as Residents.
Myself and a few others were asked by many within the Department to look at moving the early elk draw to the same time as the Resident draw. So, myself and JM77 started to look into things and what problems the early NR elk draw were causing. The main complaint we were hearing from the Department was a need to produce what they called the "packet", which was early guesses on quotas for the early NR elk draw. Not only did this cause an unnecessary meeting that the wildlife division had to do, it also was PRIOR to harvest statistics being known, classifications, and herd numbers...not to mention winter kill. There were still elk seasons going on by the end of the NR application period.
Jeff and I dug into things a bit more and discovered that other problems were: 1. Quotas changing after the season setting commission meeting. 2. Some seasons NR were not even allowed to apply for because they weren't being offered LQ tags on new seasons approved in April. 3. Any regulation changes as a result of the early draw, couldn't be changed until the following season because tags had already been issued (example was the department/commission having to allow archery hunters to hunt any bull during archery season on a unit 100 spike only tag, another would be the 45 type 1 tag mentioned above).
So, Jeff and I began the process and approached the Department and started the ball rolling. We asked, then Director Talbot, if we could get the data, in a report, for the license allocation for the current year to see how many tags that either NR or R's were being ripped off on because of the early draw. Honestly, we had no idea because it just wasn't easy to track. But, what we did know is that somebody wasn't getting their allocation of tags. Talbot had the license division run the report and when Jeff and I looked at it, we realized that Residents were getting ripped out of about 300 LQ licenses required by regulation/statute. In other words, residents weren't getting their 84% allotment of LQ licenses. That was a surprise. The bigger surprise is when I was contacted by the second in command at the WYGF to help come up with a solution. I met with the person in question in Cheyenne and was told that the Department would issue the balance of LQ licenses so that the 84% resident requirement was met. My first concern was the health of the herd, and I told the GF person, "Look, if issuing those additional tags is going to have any kind of a negative impact on the elk herds, this conversation will never leave this room and I'll drop it right now". I didn't want to see any damage done to the resource trying to make things fair...has to be about the resource first. I was assured from this person, that because of WY's world class elk management, there was no harm that would come from the additional 300 tags. So, with no thanks from anyone, that season, 300 residents were recipients of LQ elk tags they wouldn't have gotten without the work of a handful of Department people, Jeff, and myself.
So, in an attempt to address this from happening again, Jeff worked with the office in Casper and some other GF folks and came up with a "patch" that would keep the 84-16 split closer. They came up with the Resident portion being 84% of the commission approved quota. This kept the number of tags either issued to R or NR a lot closer to what the actual splits would/should be.
In the meantime, we've been working with the Commission to just move the draw date to the same time as the Resident draw. It makes sense for all the reasons I already listed, saves the "packet" meeting, clears up a potential conflict of tags being issued before the commission approves them, makes the splits based on actual approved quotas rather than a guess, give biologists time to set seasons based on their classification data, harvest statistics, and population estimates and time to adjust for things like winter kill, cost savings of having one draw, etc.
The only downside I'm seeing right now is what others are complaining about, and that's the application deadline of January 31 and not knowing until June. That doesn't make sense and is 100% the outfitters driving this. So, I would recommend that when comments are sent, keep in mind the upside of why this change is necessary. Just ask for the NR application dates to be the same as the Resident draw dates. No need to bash the commission/department about money, residents wanting more tags, all that crap.
Finally, the way this is going to benefit NR's in the full price draw:
1. You'll get to hunt every season/tag approved by the commission.
2. The Resident draw happens first for LQ tags. Any LQ tags not drawn by residents will fall to the NR portion of the draw (including type 4 tags). Sure, that will mean less general tags to reach the balance of 7250, but you'll get more LQ tags potentially.
3. The big change will be that all the type 6 and 7 tags, not drawn by residents in the initial draw, will go to the NR side of the initial draw. Meaning that if R's don't have their chit together and list 2nd and 3rd choices, nonresidents are going to get first crack at those. Anything remaining after the NR draw will go to the second draw and then of course to the first come first serve.
This is really a no-brainer if you're interested in doing what's best for the department, the herds, and both R and NR elk hunters...
Jeff, myself, and mulecreek have spent a lot of time working on this one to get it right...final piece of the puzzle will be allowing NR's to apply, or at the very least modify their apps, until the end of May same as Residents.
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Addicting
Well-known member
While it will suck to pay interest on a tag you may not get. I will gladly see you all bow out. That little bit of interest is still better than not hunting. My only hope is they let us pull our applications right up to the end and not mess with points if we draw elsewhere.
D
Deleted member 18333
Guest
My comments on not thinking it through were entirely in regards to leaving the NR app deadline in Jan rather than making it the same as res hunters. The rest of this decision took a great deal of research, planning, work, time and money.
BlakeA
Well-known member
I think WY sucks. I hope a pile of NR's decide to call it quits and go elsewhere. Overrated and the price for the tags is a joke! Now we have to wait until JUNE?!?! Thats the worst! Hopefully thousands see the light and go elsewhere......
On a side note I'm really looking forward to another elk hunt there this fall.
On a side note I'm really looking forward to another elk hunt there this fall.
This will definitely change the way I approach my applications. This definitely helps NR's at the expense of R's. I'm not complaining, just stating fact.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Sure thing.
In the past, there were proposed seasons/tags that were not listed in the nonresident packet and tags weren't offered until after the April commission meeting.
So, NR's weren't even given the opportunity to apply for new elk seasons.
Well if the app period still ends for NR in Jan how does this help w above? If we have to apply before April when these seasons are passed then how can we apply for them if they haven’t even been created in Jan to apply for? If this makes sense, thanks!
ImBillT
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2018
- Messages
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After thinking more about how the WY process works I think Buzz was right and I was wrong regarding NRs getting more LQ tags than before.
Further highlighting my ignorance on the draw in WY, what are the current rules on withdrawing an application before the drawing? That’s not something I’ve considered before.
Further highlighting my ignorance on the draw in WY, what are the current rules on withdrawing an application before the drawing? That’s not something I’ve considered before.
It will be interesting to see how this effects the draw odds, especially on the special draw. I’m guessing there will a fairly significant number of people who won’t want to float the tag cost for that long. If this change improves draw odds I’m all in favor of it.
BuzzH
Well-known member
It wont unless NR's can modify their apps after the April commission meeting. Which I will be asking the commission to allow.
WapitiBob
Well-known member
Nr modify period will be May 8.
D
Deleted member 18333
Guest
I doubt it. People thought the CC fee would reduce applicants. NR elk apps were up almost 3%. Fees, timing, allocation don’t change the fact that wyo has great elk tags and lots of people want them.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Nothing can change at the Commission meeting?
You know, things like reducing moose tags in unit 9 from 5 to 3 so "my boys on the wood river don't get shot?"
Nothing set in stone until it passes the chapter 44 commission meeting.
cahunter805
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- May 27, 2014
- Messages
- 2,464
Buzz,JM,Mulecreek
Thank you for all your time and work on this!
Although I feel the application period should be moved to coincide with residents anything is better than what used to be the NR elk draw fiasco.
These changes will ultimately help not only hunters but biologists and the wildlife also.
Thank you for all your time and work on this!
Although I feel the application period should be moved to coincide with residents anything is better than what used to be the NR elk draw fiasco.
These changes will ultimately help not only hunters but biologists and the wildlife also.
JM77
Well-known member
My guess is that date will hold Buzz, but to clarify something, residents only get 2 choices on type 6&7 tags. There is a movement to get that changed to 3 choices from what I am told.
BuzzH
Well-known member
We try to do the best we can, but people just cant get past their own self interest long enough to do what they know is right.
So, my approach has always been do right by the resource first, worry about the people down the road. I've long ago learned that no matter what you do, there are going to be people that like what you do, some that hate what you do.
Its just the cost of doing business and wont ever change.
