Caribou Gear Tarp

WY GEN Elk Tag is Virtually a Once in a Lifetime Tag---Change my Mind

PrairieHunter

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Dude you have a point with the premise but that’s 100% not how that word is used.
Yes it is. Go look it up in a dictionary if you want.

I laid out exactly how it was a subsidy using the definition of subsidy.

You may not use it that way but I am going off the actual meaning of the word in the dictionary, not your opinion or personal use of the word.

Wyoming is subsidizing NR hunting via reduced priced NR tags and it's being paid for in the form of lost revenue for the state. State $ is being lost subsidizing the NR hunter any way you slice it.

That is a subsidy by definition.
 

RobertD

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@TOGIE @wllm

Referencing Girard again:

The concept I alluded to earlier about "people don't actually like what they like" is a big part of the theory of mimetic desire.

Girard also argues for another concept within the theory that he calls scapegoating, which basically says

Heightened competition for an object increases the sense of desire (through implied scarcity) > that desire/scarcity effect creates a feedback loop > if unchecked, (evolutionarily speaking) the feedback loop ultimately leads to violence

Girard argues that scapegoating is the method society developed to defuse those situations. It occurs when a majority of the competing group selects one member or a subgroup of members of the group and holds them disproportionately responsible for the chaos.

Sorry, can't help it, my whole introduction to mimetic desire and Girard started with trying to study the "psychology" behind tag drawing data. There are certainly parallels.
 

ElkFever2

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The number of tags in units isn’t changing that much as a whole, the number of people putting in is. What’s the common driver of that? The hunting celebs and influencers that everyone is fanboying over use all the right buzzwords and have most hunters convinced that they are public land advocates that are somehow conserving hunting from all the boogie men. The reality is that they use it as a front to sell products to gullible people who think they need $5k in gear, a $1k elk hunting Boot Camp and application strategies in 7 western states to be a badass internet hunter like they are. The picture of the dude on the bear thread that was hunting the M in Bozeman is a prime example
I did my best to imitate the imitator
444CCACE-A396-48BF-A271-4F46C32FFA43.jpeg
Pack too heavy? ✅
New gear for the hunt? ✅
Pants tucked into boots? ❌
 

HONEYBADGER

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Aug 24, 2013
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495
I think the problem is "hunting" has become personality trait for so many people that I'm curious how elastic the demand really is...

You think the dude whose truck is slathered in mtnHops stickers is going to take up another hobby in the downturn.
If they can't get tags and hunts for the gram/YouTube, yes.
 

PablitoPescador

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I did my best to imitate the imitator
View attachment 226184
Pack too heavy? ✅
New gear for the hunt? ✅
Pants tucked into boots? ❌
Did you take Mark Livesay’s e scouting course, purchase a go hunt subscription, buy a mountain tough membership, go to Dan Staton’s Boot Camp, and bring enough mountain ops to piss out your ass for a whole week? If not, you didn’t prepare enough.
 

Oak

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In 2022 the cost for a gen elk tag for someone using preference points
Gen elk Tag $692 + 5 points ($52)= $952
Not to derail the thread, but your comments have made me reconsider the CO situation. Perhaps the answer is not to eliminate OTC elk, but rather charge a commensurate rate for OTC to that of what someone who draws a 10 point license has invested. The NR with 10 points has invested $865 in qualifying licenses (at the 2022 rate) just to apply for a point over that 10 years. He has invested in CO wildlife management. The guy who decides a week before archery season to load up the truck and go OTC elk hunting has invested nothing extra. So, rather than increasing the price of more desirable tags such as states like UT, what if we charged $1,500 for the NR OTC elk license (and corresponding rate for R licenses)?

Waiting for the for the pitchfork mob.....
 

wllm

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Not to derail the thread, but your comments have made me reconsider the CO situation. Perhaps the answer is not to eliminate OTC elk, but rather charge a commensurate rate for OTC to that of what someone who draws a 10 point license has invested. The NR with 10 points has invested $865 in qualifying licenses (at the 2022 rate) just to apply for a point over that 10 years. He has invested in CO wildlife management. The guy who decides a week before archery season to load up the truck and go OTC elk hunting has invested nothing extra. So, rather than increasing the price of more desirable tags such as states like UT, what if we charged $1,500 for the NR OTC elk license (and corresponding rate for R licenses)?

Waiting for the for the pitchfork mob.....

I don’t hate it actually. Though would explode the reissue list, and draw odds on limited units.
 

Rhcuam

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Oct 14, 2021
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329
Not to derail the thread, but your comments have made me reconsider the CO situation. Perhaps the answer is not to eliminate OTC elk, but rather charge a commensurate rate for OTC to that of what someone who draws a 10 point license has invested. The NR with 10 points has invested $865 in qualifying licenses (at the 2022 rate) just to apply for a point over that 10 years. He has invested in CO wildlife management. The guy who decides a week before archery season to load up the truck and go OTC elk hunting has invested nothing extra. So, rather than increasing the price of more desirable tags such as states like UT, what if we charged $1,500 for the NR OTC elk license (and corresponding rate for R licenses)?

Waiting for the for the pitchfork mob.....
Wouldn't necessarily be against it. At 1500 otc you’re a little over double the cost of a regular drawn tag.
I could get behind otc tags being $1,051.47, basically 1.5x a drawn tag.
 

PrairieHunter

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Laramie, WY
Not to derail the thread, but your comments have made me reconsider the CO situation. Perhaps the answer is not to eliminate OTC elk, but rather charge a commensurate rate for OTC to that of what someone who draws a 10 point license has invested. The NR with 10 points has invested $865 in qualifying licenses (at the 2022 rate) just to apply for a point over that 10 years. He has invested in CO wildlife management. The guy who decides a week before archery season to load up the truck and go OTC elk hunting has invested nothing extra. So, rather than increasing the price of more desirable tags such as states like UT, what if we charged $1,500 for the NR OTC elk license (and corresponding rate for R licenses)?

Waiting for the for the pitchfork mob.....

That's an interesting one as if you charge 3x the price and get 1/3 of the hunters it's a wash on $ and the resource is preserved to a much greater degree. That's the likely answer that keeps the revenue where it's at and decreases the # of animals that are killed. Better management. Those damn poor people keep messing things up for the rich hunters.

The real $ maker for Colorado is the sell/adopt a wolf as a NFT for conservation, pay in crypto. People would probably pay a million in dogecoin to have their own wild wolf NFT. Have a wolf app to show where their wolves are on a map so folks could watch them easily. They could have a wolf tag for "shooting" a wolf (actually photographing) and could probably make a lot $ selling those to photographers who could watermark them on photos, social media, etc, #COWoofers

The states have found a way to get hunters, rafters, fisherman, ATV owners, and boaters to pay up with some sort of fee or registration. Now it's time for the hikers, wolf humpers, rock climbers, paddle boarders, runners, bikers, etc who use the same land to pay up.
 

squirrel

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Dec 29, 2013
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Apparently all we need to do is give gov't agencies more money and our problems are all resolved. I never would have come up with this knowledge based on life experience, thank goodness for this site.
Silly me if I want to hunt Gen WY I'd would've screwed up and moved there.
 

wllm

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Boston
Not to derail the thread, but your comments have made me reconsider the CO situation. Perhaps the answer is not to eliminate OTC elk, but rather charge a commensurate rate for OTC to that of what someone who draws a 10 point license has invested. The NR with 10 points has invested $865 in qualifying licenses (at the 2022 rate) just to apply for a point over that 10 years. He has invested in CO wildlife management. The guy who decides a week before archery season to load up the truck and go OTC elk hunting has invested nothing extra. So, rather than increasing the price of more desirable tags such as states like UT, what if we charged $1,500 for the NR OTC elk license (and corresponding rate for R licenses)?

Waiting for the for the pitchfork mob.....
Originally weren't tag fees just kind of a nominal fee to help defray costs... and aren't they still?

Back in the 30s they were like $10 res $100 NR or whatever, the fees obviously didn't cover a sliver of the costs of the program. For sheep/goat/moose that's still basically the case correct, elk tags are more or less paying for sheep projects?

Elk aren't seen as a marketable product, that's just not how the NA model and public trust doctrines work.

My only real point there is the price are and always have been pretty arbitrary.

As far as the OTC question, because most units are bull only essentially CPW is saying well we protect spikes and elk are haram breeding animals so we can kill almost every >5pt every year and be fine.

If there are 100 legal bulls in a unit, they know that if they issue 200 tags 60 will die and 1000 tags 80 will die... 20 is plenty for management purposes and you get "way more opportunity." (obviously being a bit hyperbolic)

We sportsman, don't like the fact that there are 1000 folks in the unit nor that only a couple bulls make it beyond 3 years old, but it's not really problematic from the perspective of herd numbers.

So it seems like the question is quality versus opportunity.

... mostly just thinking allowed here...

So to your point I think if you kept all limited licenses the same price $865 and then kept OTC but made it $1500 you would reduce the number of tags sold and therefore crowding in those seasons. You fix limited unit crowding by lowering the quota, but yeah I agree raising price seems like the best way to "fairly" reduce the number of OTC tags.
 

TOGIE

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CO
@TOGIE @wllm

Referencing Girard again:

The concept I alluded to earlier about "people don't actually like what they like" is a big part of the theory of mimetic desire.

Girard also argues for another concept within the theory that he calls scapegoating, which basically says

Heightened competition for an object increases the sense of desire (through implied scarcity) > that desire/scarcity effect creates a feedback loop > if unchecked, (evolutionarily speaking) the feedback loop ultimately leads to violence

Girard argues that scapegoating is the method society developed to defuse those situations. It occurs when a majority of the competing group selects one member or a subgroup of members of the group and holds them disproportionately responsible for the chaos.

Sorry, can't help it, my whole introduction to mimetic desire and Girard started with trying to study the "psychology" behind tag drawing data. There are certainly parallels.

i think that's a great insight. and jives exactly with the reality.

people always need something to blame it seems.

i think it goes right along in tandem with the evolutionary reality that we mistrust other tribes. we've drawn our lines in this country and created tribes and place attributes on those tribes. they very natural thing is to be suspect of people that are marked as being from a different tribe if not "violent" towards them for no other reason than they are wearing different colors (different face paint and marking, cowboy boots versus chacos, or license plates).

wyoming residents have their hunting grounds. the "greeny" plated cars from colorado keep trampling all over them.
 

Wydahomeboy

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Nov 23, 2020
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1
Really?

You think Wyoming is getting anywhere close to market value on their big-game tags?

$34 for a doe pronghorn, for example.

$692 for an elk tag?

$288 for a cow tag?

$326 for a pronghorn buck?

We could sell out tags charging double.

Are we advocating for higher tag prices to hopefully lower the total number of apps? In turn we see more revenue. That’s good until you realize where the money goes. F&G departments need to be more transparent and accountable. I’d like to trust them a bit more before tripling their revenue. Also, wouldn’t we just be pricing out the poor? I’m not sure if making hunting a rich man’s sport is the answer. This is me just thinking out loud. I have no solutions to these issues. I value a lot of the comments on this thread and I tend to agree with BuzzH’s opinions on most topics.
 

Coveyleader

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Dec 22, 2016
Messages
76
I drew a OIL general tag this year. I will be hunting archery. If any of you guys wants me to check out a drainage for your 2023, 2024 hunts let me know. First and only tag up there, I'm done with WY and really all out of state tags after this year except for bears. Not giving that up.
 

beginnerhunter

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Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
1,258
@TOGIE @wllm

Referencing Girard again:

The concept I alluded to earlier about "people don't actually like what they like" is a big part of the theory of mimetic desire.

Girard also argues for another concept within the theory that he calls scapegoating, which basically says

Heightened competition for an object increases the sense of desire (through implied scarcity) > that desire/scarcity effect creates a feedback loop > if unchecked, (evolutionarily speaking) the feedback loop ultimately leads to violence

Girard argues that scapegoating is the method society developed to defuse those situations. It occurs when a majority of the competing group selects one member or a subgroup of members of the group and holds them disproportionately responsible for the chaos.

Sorry, can't help it, my whole introduction to mimetic desire and Girard started with trying to study the "psychology" behind tag drawing data. There are certainly parallels.
Lol. The Western draw system -> Girard pipeline claims another victim!

For several reasons, I'm kinda cheering for a recession. My salary is pretty fixed and job basically fire-proof so would like to see a significant decrease in demand for things (fuel, housing, autos, TAGS) and allow me to make some investments while everyone else suffers. Although I do feel bad for my parents they are old enough they won't recover financially from the next recession. Their expenses are pretty low anyway. I know I know, selfish and all that just keeping it real.
 

wllm

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If the market keeps declining, and gas increasing, it will be interesting to see what it does for demand from the people that hunt multiple states a year.
To your point will people be willing to continue to pump what?.. $500-$2000 into points so that someday they might have a chance at hunting some unit and species, especially with all the votes and changes to decrease opportunity.

I'm not sure what will happen but I think it's a logical argument.
 

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