Wolf Delisting and Congress

I am not will to continue living with "it sucks" because someone is afraid of possibly, maybe setting a bad precedence.

Yep, but not in HD250, is that how you guage wolf activity when hunters quit killing bulls?


Sorry of the thread hijack Ben, Helena is killing me.

Back to the topic.
 
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And that's your choice. Just remember, we're on the same team (at least in my opinion we are). You just want to run a reverse while I want to work within the system already in place, which at this point seems like running the wishbone against the SEC. Same objectives. Just different way to go about doing things. I also think you should save your crotchety attitude for those trying to keep you from hunting wolves. I can't wait for SS and Brudno to show up and lay into me.
 
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Is done Ben and will rally the troops.
 
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As for WY, I spent 5 years working on this issue at the legislature. We could never move them off of dual classification, and while the USFWS wasn't the easiest to work with, the state was never really willing to compromise on this.

Lots get said about blame, etc, but if there is a chance to get the states that lived up to their end of the bargain, we should take it. Otherwise we sit through another decade of expanding wolf populations, and the disenfranchisement of hunters in the processes that are designed to conserve wildlife.
 
I'm really on the fence on this one...really on the fence.

No question that wolves are recovered, no question they are causing problems in many areas, it is frustrating to not have a season in place, etc.

But, I agree with mdunc8 to the extent that messing with the ESA is dangerous.

If the new congressional bill is passed there will be some wolf control measures taken immediately...but I would bet an injuction would happen almost before the ink is dry. There will be lawsuits like we've never seen on the wolf issue, and many wont be tied to the wolf issue at all rather the merits of the ESA and how th new bill violates the ESA. This could be tied up in court for many, many, many years sorting it all out. The implications of the new bill is an unknown.

I dont like where this thing is headed any more than I like the current situation...tough call.
 
I don't see it as changing the ESA. The rules to trigger the delisting, weren't written by the act. There's no need to group all three states together, where the only difference is legitimate state management plans. The wolves are recovered in Wyoming, they won't be threatened or hunted because the plan won't go into effect and doesn't get addressed with this legislation. Unless I'm missing something, this should work, and the injunction should be blown off. It' no different than when we were allowed to manage them without Wyoming. It's all good.
 
Buzz,

There is language that shelters the service from appeal. the rider is the 2009 delisting rule, so that would be the law of the land.

ID, MT, parts of OR, WA and UT would be delisted. Just like the delisting rule. All applicable standards for the ESA still stand.

This is not an exemption, just a congressional delisting.
 
It`s gotten to the point where I can hardly wrap my mind around the situation anymore. honestly, when I look at `my` elk herd, I`m just hoping there`s a few left to repopulate after the wolves out eat the ecosystem and die off themselves.

Kudos to you guys that are still in the middle of this and trying to salvage something out of this whole cluster---k, it really is appreciated.
 
LIke Buzz, I was also on the fence, but in the last six months I have fallen off the fence.

The process has gone completely amuck. No other way to state it.

This legislation does nothing to change the ESA. It changes the classification of gray wolves being governed by the ESA. ESA stays the same.

I wish the process had been able to work properly. Those who have so much financial gain by fighting and fighting, have exasperated even the most patient of hunters, such as myself.

I will never support re-introduction of any species again. Never, nope. That is a shame. But, given the fiasco this has become, and the blatent abuse by some to use the ESA as a manner of control and revenue generation is nothing I will support being subject to, ever again.

To have got to this point and not have a solution. To have seen hundreds of MT hunters and landowners spend thousands of hours crafting one of the best management plans you could ask for, only to have it all unwind due to a legal technicality of the ESA and the reintroduction agreement, is more than I can stand.

And, it is not like we have a shortage of gray wolves, either south of the 49th, or north. If there were ten gray wolves in some far reach of the world, standing as the last of their kind, I would feel differently.

To reward, both financialy and politically, those who have done nothing to help the process, pisses me off to no end. The plantiffs have done nothing to support wildlife or habitat. They have done nothing to improve the condition of the elk, sheep, moose, etc. Yet, they are given all the financal rewards and the keys to the gate.

These plantiff groups are writing checks that are being cashed on the hard work of hunters and landowners. Time to bounce those checks.

They have spent their wad. They know they are out of ammo and they pray to Christ that they don't have to deal with a Congressional delisting, or that Wyoming's plan would be accepted by the USFWS. What would they do then? They will have to create another cash cow.

It has become nothing about endangered species. It has become, and to some extent, has been for the last twenty years, about control of the landscapes of the west. It is a lack of understanding of the people who must live with the control these groups seek to impose on all who live here.

When the local tolerance for any species is exceeded, things go down hill fast. My tolerance for the process and the wasted money and time has long been exceeded.

Two years ago, I would have purveyed patience. All reasonable attempts have been made to accomodate and follow process. Time for action, before it is too late, if not too late already.

If this will get state control of wolves for MT and ID, sign me up.
 
I can see why Wyoming would never give an inch in the first place. Perhaps they are the ones with true grit.
 
Exactly. Montana and Idaho tried to compromise and were screwed. If I understand things correctly Wyoming always has the same demand: wolves outside the park are to be classified as preditors. That sounds like true grit to me.
 
nector, what compromise did Montana, or Idaho get involved with? They agree to a plan, and stuck with it. Fact: Wyoming changed their plan.

If I understand things correctly Wyoming always has the same demand: wolves outside the park are to be classified as preditors.

Like so many, you don't! It wasn't a demand, is was suppose to be a "Plan". They changed it, from pressures by the Ag community. Too bad, they'll be odd man out, as they should.
 
And that's your choice. Just remember, we're on the same team (at least in my opinion we are). You just want to run a reverse while I want to work within the system already in place, which at this point seems like running the wishbone against the SEC. Same objectives. Just different way to go about doing things. I also think you should save your crotchety attitude for those trying to keep you from hunting wolves. I can't wait for SS and Brudno to show up and lay into me.

I aint going to lay into you. You have your idea of whats the right way to handle this I have mine. I dont agree with your approach, nor you with mine. I respect your opinion more than that of an irrational lib yelling saves the wolves for the children.
 
If this will get state control of wolves for MT and ID, sign me up.

It's the best shot we've got to move on and get with the business of managing wolves at the state level. It also provides more than a warning shot across the bow of the serial litigators.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that a number of the litigants are going to be pooping the sheets when/if this goes through.

As for them suing - remember, they only get paid if they win. They only win if the Gov't screws up. EAJA is a good tool, that is abused. Fix the abuse, and create a loser pays section, and I'll be writing the alerts and organizing folks to get it through. Strip EAJA of the provisions that allow people to sue their gov't and I'll fight it. We the people have a right to seek redress from our Gov't.

Nectar, as for WY:
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
 
From eastern SD, so we don't have a wolf population! But they have had a couple of stray wolves shot around here, mistaken for coyotes? But I hear from a friend in MT that they are causing lots of problems and I see no problem in opening a season of some sort for them.
 

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