Whistle Blown on Tennessee CWD

[SAJ-99]

I disagree with you on this point.

An uncoupling of the money being spent to combat a problem from people whose professional and financial well-being depends upon NOT finding meaningful solutions would be helpful.

Reminder: we are having this discussion on a thread about a state game agency misrepresenting CWD data- I will leave it up to others to wonder about why they might have done that.

You've gone full tin-foil-hat. Any time you find some alternative solution you want to post to the thread, I will read it. But at this point I will probably read it skeptically with the view that it primarily serves to preserve your self interest. Either way, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Treeshark]

Ad hominem time… no thanks, that never serves anyone well.

 

[brocksw]

Ad hominem time… no thanks, that never serves anyone well.

Well, listen man, I have to say you’re kind of cynical about everything. Don’t get me wrong, I understand some of your sentiment about “the government”. I mean historically, “the government” has pulled some pretty shady stuff. But I just think, logically it just cannot be conspiracy all the time in every case. And “the government” is behind everything you can’t understand or everything that’s not happening in the way you think it should. That’s just so unrealistic and illogical.

I also think you fail to really parse out the historic actions of “the government” from the people and politicians behind some of the decision making. Especially the things I’m sure you would point to when making your case for conspiracy theories and government cover up’s that stemmed from the decision making of some individuals who are pretty high up in the food chain.

But how does that translate to a wildlife disease? I mean your logic, is so black and white. I just have a hard time taking those opinions seriously. I mean you go so far as to make statements insinuating that a government agency or university is incapable of making progress and it can only be a private institution that discovers a solution. I mean really? I can think of multiple researchers working very hard on solutions to help, that work for both a public university and run their own private research center.

I get it man. It’s frustrating and concerning. Things aren’t happening in a way that inspire confidence that a solution is just around the corner. I get it.

But I think this idea that lumping all the people and institutions that fall under “the government” as bad and out to get you, that they’re all incompetent, and you have the the real truth, is kind of a dangerous place to start from.

I dunno, just my 2 pennies

 

[Treeshark]

I appreciate that post brocksw, you do bring up some really good points- particularly about the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater/over-generalization. Duly noted.

Again though, I want to respectfully point out that this thread is about a state game agency misrepresenting CWD data and then firing an employee who brought it to light.

 

[brocksw]

I appreciate that post brocksw, you do bring up some really good points- particularly about the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater/over-generalization. Duly noted.

Again though, I want to respectfully point out that this thread is about a state game agency misrepresenting CWD data and then firing an employee who brought it to light.

Oh, I haven’t forgotten. But again, let’s not be in a hurry to come to a conclusion. I’ve heard multiple rumors about what happened and why. But right now, they’re just rumors. Let’s let things play out and see what comes out.

Remember, even the whistleblower is quoted saying he thinks CWD is a real concern that should not be taken lightly. People screw up sometimes, they don’t always think things through, mistakes happen. It’s a messy business being a human, I can tell you from experience.

 

[SAJ-99]

Oh, I haven’t forgotten. But again, let’s not be in a hurry to come to a conclusion. I’ve heard multiple rumors about what happened and why. But right now, they’re just rumors. Let’s let things play out and see what comes out.

Remember, even the whistleblower is quoted saying he thinks CWD is a real concern that should not be taken lightly. People screw up sometimes, they don’t always think things through, mistakes happen. It’s a messy business being a human, I can tell you from experience.

It doesn't matter. Jumping to conclusions is a key part of the game. If the ultimate conclusion shows it was just sloppiness from a government employee or the lab, it just is more evidence of how deep the conspiracy is. You can't argue with a person with a position in which all evidence against the position is seen to them to strengthen the position. Your time would be more productively spent banging your head against a telephone pole. Hence the creation of the 'block' button.

 

[brocksw]

It doesn't matter. Jumping to conclusions is a key part of the game. If the ultimate conclusion shows it was just sloppiness from a government employee or the lab, it just is more evidence of how deep the conspiracy is. You can't argue with a person with a position in which all evidence against the position is seen to them to strengthen the position. Your time would be more productively spent banging your head against a telephone pole. Hence the creation of the 'block' button.

For some folks, you’re right…and I can point to a group consisting of lots of individuals that would meet that criteria.

But I don’t think tree can be lumped into that category. He’s smarter than that. I don’t blame him for being cynical, it’s hard not to be sometimes.

I really try not write all those folks off, and maybe that makes me naive. But I get the frustration, I get the concern, and I get how sometimes the conspiracy is easy to believe because the truth is far more chaotic and complex than we can wrap our heads around. But in order for progress to be made, somebody has to not only look for the truth, but also fight to keep it at the forefront of the conversation. To me that means you’re going to run into some folks who make ya want to beat your head against the pole, as you say. Sometimes it’s tough not get snarky or insult them, I’m guilty of it too. Trust me, I’ve seen the entire spectrum from those folks. From logical arguments to outright physical threats and everything in between. Ultimately, I still believe the best path forward is to have as many people getting on the same page as possible and doing all the little things that we can to help our game and fish agencies deal with the problem.

That doesn’t mean we have to agree with everything they do and be mindless servants to their plans. But we can’t lose our ability to have a conversation about it and stay level headed during the process.

 

[SAJ-99]

For some folks, you’re right…and I can point to a group consisting of lots of individuals that would meet that criteria.

But I don’t think tree can be lumped into that category. He’s smarter than that. I don’t blame him for being cynical, it’s hard not to be sometimes.

I really try not write all those folks off, and maybe that makes me naive. But I get the frustration, I get the concern, and I get how sometimes the conspiracy is easy to believe because the truth is far more chaotic and complex than we can wrap our heads around. But in order for progress to be made, somebody has to not only look for the truth, but also fight to keep it at the forefront of the conversation. To me that means you’re going to run into some folks who make ya want to beat your head against the pole, as you say. Sometimes it’s tough not get snarky or insult them, I’m guilty of it too. Trust me, I’ve seen the entire spectrum from those folks. From logical arguments to outright physical threats and everything in between. Ultimately, I still believe the best path forward is to have as many people getting on the same page as possible and doing all the little things that we can to help our game and fish agencies deal with the problem.

That doesn’t mean we have to agree with everything they do and be mindless servants to their plans. But we can’t lose our ability to have a conversation about it and stay level headed during the process.

He did use latin, so clearly smarter than average, but tin foil hats fit a lot of different people. If I get it correct, he is basically arguing that there is too much money in "managing for CWD" for the govt/state agencies to find a solution. The lack of a solution is his support for the argument. While I like the "follow the money" approach, he needs a little more evidence. Even if TN did some shady stuff, which is plausible, it hardly warrants painting with that broad a brush. But again, painting with a broad brush is part of that game. His bet that a solution will come from the private sector without public support is almost laughable. Everyone sticks out their hand when the checks get mailed. Good luck.

 

[brocksw]

He did use latin, so clearly smarter than average, but tin foil hats fit a lot of different people. If I get it correct, he is basically arguing that there is too much money in "managing for CWD" for the govt/state agencies to find a solution. The lack of a solution is his support for the argument. While I like the "follow the money" approach, he needs a little more evidence. Even if TN did some shady stuff, which is plausible, it hardly warrants painting with that broad a brush. But again, painting with a broad brush is part of that game. His bet that a solution will come from the private sector without public support is almost laughable. Everyone sticks out their hand when the checks get mailed. Good luck.

There is a lot of that, no doubt. But sometimes it’s as simple as providing context. For example, I hear a lot of folks frustrated with the lack of solutions over the last 50+ years. But it’s not as if we’ve been dumping a ton of money into this issue that entire time. In fact, we’ve gone decades without really putting any money towards it. So there’s this misconception about the effort and funds devoted to solutions and the lack of results over that time. When in actuality most of the effort and money has been spent over the last 20 years. And even then, most of the big efforts towards actual solutions have happened even more recently. The CWD research and management act will really represent the first significant effort towards finding solutions. But there have been folks that have made some progress over the last 10-15 years.

My point is sometimes it’s as simple as just laying the complete story out there. You’re right, not everyone will care and it won’t always change minds. But if we keep doing that, some folks will start to get a better more accurate picture of the problem and the facts.

 

[brocksw]

While I like the "follow the money" approach, he needs a little more evidence.

This is a really common phrase I hear. But I always hear this used under a really myopic lens. By that, I mean it’s easy to say follow the money with a real cynical undertone and leave it at that. But the other side of that same coin is that money is necessary to conduct research. What research, on any level, or in any field, is done without money? What significant and complex health issue in wildlife or humans has been found or cured without significant capital investment? Do these folks expect professionals to work for free? Do they think research facilities are constructed for free? Do they think equipment is donated or made for free? So yeah, in some sense the research does follow the money. It has to, there is no other way. But sometimes that just needs to be said out loud, those questions need to be asked out loud for people to really take in the context of the conversation.

Again, that won’t always change everyone’s mind, but I do believe there’s enough rational people that just need to hear it before it completely registers in their brains. Again, maybe I’m naive.

 

[SAJ-99]

For example, I hear a lot of folks frustrated with the lack of solutions over the last 50+ years.

Hard to have these discussions. You have my sympathy. Most of the folks don't know the difference between a prion and a virus and a bacteria. In this thread, we have seen passive aggressive attacks on the government and people with college degrees, but little use of any actual data. Not the basis of a great conversation.

 

[SAJ-99]

This is a really common phrase I hear. But I always hear this used under a really myopic lens. By that, I mean it’s easy to say follow the money with a real cynical undertone and leave it at that. But the other side of that same coin is that money is necessary to conduct research. What research, on any level, or in any field, is done without money? What significant and complex health issue in wildlife or humans has been found or cured without significant capital investment? Do these folks expect professionals to work for free? Do they think research facilities are constructed for free? Do they think equipment is donated or made for free? So yeah, in some sense the research does follow the money. It has to, there is no other way. But sometimes that just needs to be said out loud, those questions need to be asked out loud for people to really take in the context of the conversation.

Again, that won’t always change everyone’s mind, but I do believe there’s enough rational people that just need to hear it before it completely registers in their brains. Again, maybe I’m naive.

There are a lot of directions to take the $ comment. Did they move testing to new lab because it was cheaper? Did they stop doing a second confirming test for lack of $? Are there escalation rules in the budget for more money for more positives? Is someone getting paid off? Was the whistleblower just mad he wasn't getting a cut? I can come up with dozens of them. This is America. Follow the money is a great place to start when looking for a motive. That said, it is all just BS guessing without proof.

 

[brocksw]

Hard to have these discussions. You have my sympathy. Most of the folks don't know the difference between a prion and a virus and a bacteria. In this thread, we have seen passive aggressive attacks on the government and people with college degrees, but little use of any actual data. Not the basis of a great conversation.

The group here in ND is now saying prions don’t exist and they’re not contagious. They even made a specific claim that Case Western couldn’t produce an image of a prion when case western has produced the highest resolution, atomic level imaging, of a prion in the world. Like I said, I believe I’ve seen the entire spectrum of these arguments. Those folks have been shown the data/work that directly refutes their claims and they still keep making the same claim. They’ve blocked every single person who disagrees with their “narrative” on their FB page.

I think some of the folks in this thread are far more reasonable to deal with and talk to, despite their tendency towards conspiracies and cynical attitudes. I guess I’m saying I feel like I have a pretty good eye for catching the lost causes versus the folks who just need a reasonable conversation. But I make mistakes too.

 

[Nicoli7153]

The group here in ND is now saying prions don’t exist and they’re not contagious. They even made a specific claim that Case Western couldn’t produce an image of a prion when case western has produced the highest resolution, atomic level imaging, of a prion in the world. Like I said, I believe I’ve seen the entire spectrum of these arguments. Those folks have been shown the data/work that directly refutes their claims and they still keep making the same claim. They’ve blocked every single person who disagrees with their “narrative” on their FB page.

I think some of the folks in this thread are far more reasonable to deal with and talk to, despite their tendency towards conspiracies and cynical attitudes. I guess I’m saying I feel like I have a pretty good eye for catching the lost causes versus the folks who just need a reasonable conversation. But I make mistakes too.

A lot of what people think are govt conspiracies are really just govt incompetence

 

[Treeshark]

His bet that a solution will come from the private sector without public support is almost laughable.

Let’s cool it with the personal snipes- it’s ok if we disagree on things. I hope we can act like adults and continue without this going off the rails- it’s an important and interesting discussion.

I want to be clear- I am most certainly not a CWD denier- but outside of NY, the cows are unfortunately way out of the barn. In my opinion, the main challenge at this point is related to timely testing and the safety of human consumption. I predict that a point-of-kill “pregnancy test” style kit will exist soon, and private industry absolutely stands to financially gain from such a creation.

Sound crazy?

Maybe not.

 

[brocksw]

Let’s cool it with the personal snipes- it’s ok if we disagree on things. I hope we can act like men and continue without this going off the rails- it’s an important discussion.

I want to be clear- I am most certainly not a CWD denier- but outside of NY, the cows are unfortunately way out of the barn. In my opinion, the main challenge at this point is related to timely testing and the safety of human consumption. I predict that a point-of-kill “pregnancy test” style kit will exist soon, and private industry absolutely stands to financially gain from such a creation.

Sound crazy?

Maybe not.

That’s Dr. Peter Larsen’s shop. He and a lot of his staff are also employed with University of Minnesota. A lot of cool work coming out of his programs. Those tests are in the process of becoming federally certified as we speak. I’ve exchanged a few emails with him and his staff. Good folks.

 

[SAJ-99]

Let’s cool it with the personal snipes- it’s ok if we disagree on things. I hope we can act like adults and continue without this going off the rails- it’s an important and interesting discussion.

I want to be clear- I am most certainly not a CWD denier- but outside of NY, the cows are unfortunately way out of the barn. In my opinion, the main challenge at this point is related to timely testing and the safety of human consumption. I predict that a point-of-kill “pregnancy test” style kit will exist soon, and private industry absolutely stands to financially gain from such a creation.

Sound crazy?

Maybe not.

You are acting defensive and maybe we end up talking past each other. There was no personal snipe. I will be more direct in the future. I stand by my comment. Priogen was spun out of the University of Minn. It is ridiculous to pretend like public funds weren't involved or even at its core. To think public funds won't be involved in the future is laughable. But I think we can agree that we hope they continue to do great work.

 

[SAJ-99]

That’s Dr. Peter Larsen’s shop. He and a lot of his staff are also employed with University of Minnesota. A lot of cool work coming out of his programs. Those tests are in the process of becoming federally certified as we speak. I’ve exchanged a few emails with him and his staff. Good folks.

Do you happen to know any more recent info on this research? I wonder if it has been challenged in review or if western states are pretending it doesn't exist?

Grass plants bind, retain, uptake, and transport infectious prions - PubMed

Prions are the protein-based infectious agents responsible for prion diseases. Environmental prion contamination has been implicated in disease transmission. Here, we analyzed the binding and retention of infectious prion protein (PrP(Sc)) to plants. Small quantities of PrP(Sc) contained in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[brocksw]

Do you happen to know any more recent info on this research? I wonder if it has been challenged in review or if western states are pretending it doesn't exist?

Grass plants bind, retain, uptake, and transport infectious prions - PubMed

Prions are the protein-based infectious agents responsible for prion diseases. Environmental prion contamination has been implicated in disease transmission. Here, we analyzed the binding and retention of infectious prion protein (PrP(Sc)) to plants. Small quantities of PrP(Sc) contained in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I haven’t seen a ton of work around that. But to my understanding it’s unclear what role uptake into plants plays in transmission, if any. I’ve read some work around infectivity from different mediums like clay, and infectivity from feces/urine/saliva/brain, that would lead me to believe plants probably don’t play a major role. But that’s purely my own (non-professional) speculation, and I certainly don’t claim to have seen all the work around this concept.

But generally, from the publications I’ve read, it looks to me like most exposure that could lead to infection would come from saliva, infected dirt that’s been infected with saliva, urine, and feces, and then taken in orally or intranasally.

It’s also worth noting that clay soil particles have shown to increase infectivity by 680x. So just imagine setting out a mineral block or bait pile with clay particles in the soil, then deer come in and deposit excreta (saliva,urine,feces) every day for an extended period of time. That sounds like the ingredients for creating an artificial hot spot to me.

 

[brocksw]

I feel like it’s absolutely necessary to put a disclaimer out there. I am not an expert. I do not have any educational or professional experience in wildlife diseases. I have done my absolute best at reading as many of these studies as I can and contacting the veterinarians, biologists, and researchers across the country who have conducted them. They have all been more than gracious with their time and patience explaining these things to me like I’m a monkey. In fact, that’s usually exactly what I lead with when I call/email them. “Explain it to me like I’m a monkey”. They have sent me additional works, put me in contact with other professionals, sent me follow up emails, and taken time out of their lives to help me understand this issue to the best of my intellectual capabilities, which I’m certain falls short sometimes. But I’m not the authority. I’m just regurgitating information the best I can. If at anytime someone has/finds some work that refutes something I say, please call me out on it. Please share it. Facts are more important than me being right.