When is enough, enough?

[sdkhunter]

I agree that there are some states and species that make it pretty tough for the new and young hunter. It would be nice to address some of those issues but as we all know it sometimes seems impossible for States to find common ground when they have been running less than ideal systems for years. It’s also easy to get caught up wishing I had deep pockets like some so I could buy expensive LO tags but that’s just not realistic for many of us either. Like has been mentioned in many of the posts above - there are tons of opportunities that will provide an excellent hunt. I play the draw systems that make sense for me and my budget and fill in the gaps with some easier to draw tags but hunts that are still a lot of fun - Whitetails, Mule Deer, Antelope, etc.

 

[WapitiBob]

If everybody thought a true random system was "fair," hunters in Idaho and NM wouldn't be on forums asking for point systems.

 

[buffybr]

... move to a state with good OTC opportunity, or easy to draw tags like ID, MT or WY...

I realize that the primary animal of this discussion is Elk, however Sheep, Moose, and Goat tags are definitely NOT easy to draw in Montana! Like thousands of other hunters, I have the maximum number of Montana bonus points for these species. I think that number now is 18, which squared puts my name in the hat 324 times for each of those tags, and every year people apply for their first time and draw one of these tags. As of this year, I have 41 straight years of unsuccessfully applying for a Goat tag, 36 years without a Sheep tag, and 31 years without a Moose tag.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I realize that the primary animal of this discussion is Elk, however Sheep, Moose, and Goat tags are definitely NOT easy to draw in Montana! Like thousands of other hunters, I have the maximum number of Montana bonus points for these species. I think that number now is 18, which squared puts my name in the hat 324 times for each of those tags, and every year people apply for their first time and draw one of these tags. As of this year, I have 41 straight years of unsuccessfully applying for a Goat tag, 36 years without a Sheep tag, and 31 years without a Moose tag.

You putting in for cows, ewes, hard to units, or going into the unlimited?

You can’t just put in for breaks tags and then complain it’s super hard to draw a tag. It’s like complaining it’s impossible to hunt deer and then low and behold your only applying for a AZ strip tag and nowhere else.

 

[Bambistew]

I realize that the primary animal of this discussion is Elk, however Sheep, Moose, and Goat tags are definitely NOT easy to draw in Montana! Like thousands of other hunters, I have the maximum number of Montana bonus points for these species. I think that number now is 18, which squared puts my name in the hat 324 times for each of those tags, and every year people apply for their first time and draw one of these tags. As of this year, I have 41 straight years of unsuccessfully applying for a Goat tag, 36 years without a Sheep tag, and 31 years without a Moose tag.

Ok... then move to Alaska, sheep, moose and goat are all OTC. The point systems will never get better. There are too many people wanting tags for too few available animals. Sorry that you've applied for so many years to no avail. I applied for moose/sheep/goat in MT for 22 years unsuccessfully, and tossed away 12 or 13 points for them when I figured out just how bad the odds where for a NR even with max points. Now that I live in a place I can hunt them every year, the allure wore off. I honestly don't have the desire to hunt big three in the L48, for what ever reason.

MT, WY and ID are pretty hard to beat for OTC opportunity for residents, luckily there aren't points to really worry about stopping a guy from getting to hunt every year.

 

[buffybr]

You putting in for cows, ewes, hard to units, or going into the unlimited?
I consider Moose, Bighorn sheep, and Goats as trophy animals. I don't apply for female tags.
This year, all of the Moose tags in Montana Regions 1, 2, and 5 were ONLY for Antlered bulls. Region 3 had 13 Antlerless Moose tag units, and there were 5 units in Regions 3 and 4 with either sex tags. Although one Bull unit had an almost 7% chance of drawing in 2018, most other bull units had less than a 2% chance of drawing.

Montana has cut the number of Unlimited units back to 5, with a quota of 2 legal rams in each unit which can close in as little as a 24 hour notice. Although there was one Ram unit that had a 2.41% chance of drawing in 2018, most Ram units have a 1% or less chance of drawing.

In 2018, the highest chance of drawing a Montana Goat tag was 3.61%. Most other units had a 2% or less chance of drawing a tag. None of these units are an easy draw.

You can’t just put in for breaks tags and then complain it’s super hard to draw a tag. It’s like complaining it’s impossible to hunt deer and then low and behold your only applying for a AZ strip tag and nowhere else.
In 2018, the highest chance of drawing a Ram tag in the Breaks was 0.56%, but there were 19 other Montana Ram units that also had less than a 1% chance of drawing.

I have killed 3 Unlimited Rams, and even though one has a full curl, I've decided to only apply in a unit with 190" or better rams. I'm old enough now that if I would kill another ram, bull moose, or goat, it would be the last time that I would be able to hunt them.

I also killed a large Montana Billy Goat back in 1979, and have killed 2 Montana bull moose, so I don't have to kill another one. Last month I passed on shots at 3 Newfoundland bull moose because I wanted larger antlers and came home with an un-punched tag.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

So you’ve killed 3 MT sheep, 2 moose, and a goat and are bitching?
Jaded much...

 

[BuzzH]

So you’ve killed 3 MT sheep, 2 moose, and a goat and are bitching?
Jaded much...

That mentality is exactly why Montana has a point system. Guys that killed early on, weren't wanting to get their first tag, but rather their second, third, or fourth.

When it got tougher to draw, they wanted to up their chances of drawing AGAIN.

I've been applying for sheep in Montana for nearly 4 decades and I had odds as good as 1-20 in the breaks and lower rock creek the first years I applied in those areas.

I did draw moose and goat there, so I cant complain.

 

[buffybr]

Ok... then move to Alaska, sheep, moose and goat are all OTC. The point systems will never get better. There are too many people wanting tags for too few available animals. Sorry that you've applied for so many years to no avail. I applied for moose/sheep/goat in MT for 22 years unsuccessfully, and tossed away 12 or 13 points for them when I figured out just how bad the odds where for a NR even with max points. Now that I live in a place I can hunt them every year, the allure wore off. I honestly don't have the desire to hunt big three in the L48, for what ever reason.

MT, WY and ID are pretty hard to beat for OTC opportunity for residents, luckily there aren't points to really worry about stopping a guy from getting to hunt every year.

I agree. There are too many people here and too few available animals.

All my years of applying weren't completely for no avail. The first 10 years that I lived in Montana I was lucky enough to draw and shoot a goat, 2 bull moose, and 3 unlimited bighorn rams. Its just been 31-41 years since then that I've applied and not drawn.

Yes, MT, WY, and ID are pretty hard to beat for OTC opportunity for residents for deer and elk. I've killed enough elk that I don't have to shoot one every year like I used to, and now its for meat and not antlers.

And I'm too old and have too much stuff to move to Alaska.

 

[buffybr]

So you’ve killed 3 MT sheep, 2 moose, and a goat and are bitching?
Jaded much...

Not necessarily bitching, just stating the facts...

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Not necessarily bitching, just stating the facts...

Fair, I can’t argue those are the odds and apologies for my snarkyness... and I understand it’s complicated and that after 30-40 years you want to have one of those experiences again, I would too.

At the same time in these point system conversations on the forum there is always this tension between, those of us who realize that we probably won’t ever hunt a lower 48 MSG... or at least not on a trophy hunt, and are ok with that because that’s just the reality and the group of older hunters that have double sheep slams and are making cranky comments how they will never finish their third slam.

It just induces rage lol

Guess I need to go drink a la Croix and post a bunch about my feelings on Instagram

 

[BuzzH]

If I had my way, I'd make it retroactive to 1960 that if you ever killed a moose, sheep, or goat in Montana you couldn't apply again.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

If I had my way, I'd make it retroactive to 1960 that if you ever killed a moose, sheep, or goat in Montana you couldn't apply again.

Honestly I’ve wondered if the best way to deal with these species/opportunities is to make 8 seasons a year, make them 5 days long, put them in the worst time of the year to hunt that species, and make it archery only. Essentially tweak everything so success rates are 10%, so you can issue way more tags.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Not necessarily bitching, just stating the facts...

If I was as negative/miserable about hunting as you are I'd quit and find a new hobby.

Id bet my boots you'll be a happier person if you quit applying for any draw and just go and do something that no one controls but you.

 

[hossblur]

No. There is no chance any new hunter isn't seriously being discriminated against.

My 14yr old. Utah

-2 sheep points(he will never draw a sheep)
Utah Res can only apply for 1 OIL so he will never hunt goat, moose, buffalo because he will apply his whole life for sheep.

-3 elk points.

He's looking at 12-15 for good unit, 20+ for premium. So. If he's lucky with waiting periods he might draw 2 in a lifetime. And because he focused on elk, he will never draw a LE deer.


So. We talk about recruitment, but for him he will NEVER hunt Sheep, Goat, moose, buffalo, LE deer, and MIGHT hunt 2 LE elk.

His 9yr old little brother is even in sadder shape.

BUT. Utah has turned 1/4 of the state into CWMU units so that if you scratch a check big enough you can hunt LE yearly, with no waiting periods, and point loss. So while deep pockets play the point game, they can have it both ways.

Then we give out 500+ "conservation" tags f that cost no points with no waiting periods. $FW gets nearly half of those and you guys know how well that's worked out.

In Utah for years a resident could get points for all species. So the grey beards who sit at the top of the heap, piled up points under different rules than those behind them, yet they scream bloody murder about "changing the point system".

Meanwhile. We can put in in Id, and NM as non residents and have equal odds of drawing as everyone else.

Every spring thousands flock to Utah to play the only legal lottery in the state, $fw "200 conservation tags", yet those same guys cry having all tags done as a lottery.

The only way to make hunting fair and equally accessible is straight up lotto.

Your folks getting frisky in January vs mine in March means your a max point holder and I'm one short forever is the stupidest scheme ever. Unless you are the max guy

 

[TheDudeAbides]

> We can put in in Id, and NM as non residents and have equal odds of drawing as everyone else

You can. However, you are limited to up to 10% and 6%.

You may draw sooner in Colorado or Wyoming due to the fact they give a higher percentage of tags away to NR's.

 

[buffybr]

If I was as negative/miserable about hunting as you are I'd quit and find a new hobby.

Id bet my boots you'll be a happier person if you quit applying for any draw and just go and do something that no one controls but you.

No, I don't think that I'm negative or miserable about hunting at all. Yes, I miss the days when you could draw a goat tag with 1 in 4 odds, unlimited sheep tags and grizzly tags were OTC , cost $25, and most of the unlimited sheep units didn't meet their quotas, and when I had my own horses to pack my camp in and my elk, moose, and sheep out. In fact, I think that I've had a pretty outstanding life of hunting. I reinforce those memories every day when I walk into my trophy room and enjoy the 70 some animal mounts that I have there.

And I didn't need to quit hunting and find a new hobby, I just expanded my hunting opportunities and have had many great hunts in Alaska, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Azerbaijan.

I hope you don't miss your boots...

 

[Mallardsx2]

 

[----]

If I was as negative/miserable about hunting as you are I'd quit and find a new hobby.

Id bet my boots you'll be a happier person if you quit applying for any draw and just go and do something that no one controls but you.

This is a BS comment.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Pistols at dawn?
or
can we all agree it's gotten crowded and putting more critters on the landscape and opening up vast tracks of public land locked off to the public by private is the goal moving forward?