What will the future look like for colleges?

[El Jason]

I think my intro courses freshman year were capped at 50? I don't ever remember being in a class with over 30...

I can remember a number of classes in excess of 2-300, and some of these were upper level science classes. Genetics/cell biology was a huge class. Organic chemistry the same. Heck, even my biochemistry class in grad school was pushing 100 students.

These were both at average sized , public four year colleges.

 

[noharleyyet]

I recall a couple of pit auditorium science related lecture venues w/ associated lab ....40-50 students.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Coronavirus pushes colleges to the breaking point, forcing “hard choices” — The Wall Street Journal

Forecast declines in enrollment and revenue have triggered spending cuts and salary freezes. “The world order has changed,” said a Northeastern University official.

apple.news

As a parent helping kids through college, it makes me question the value of spending thousands of dollars for them to get the same content they are now receiving on line. Maybe it’s a paradigm that seriously needs re-evaluated, particularly when you factor in the debt load many students graduate with and what that does to their future.

I have a degree in Engineering. I have benefited from my degree. I work with people who have degrees and those that don't. I have some thoughts on going to college.

1. College is a great place to learn and expand your mind.
2. Learning is good.
3. College is more of a business now than a learning institution.
4. If you go to college, only go because the career you plan on taking REALLY requires it (nursing, doctor, lawyer, engineer, accounting, etc).
5. If someone doesn't want to go to college, you can have a really good career in the trades: Millwright, Welder, Pipefitter, Electrician, Plumber, Auto Mechanic, Non Destructive Testing, Plant Operator etc.

I know many folks (men and women) who work in the trades and make more money than me.

Edit: If you have tons of money and don't care about spending it.... sure go to college. I'd probably pick up some classes that interested me if I was there.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Oh, another thought..... I was looking at tuition the other day. Where I went to school is about 8 times higher than when I went. I was blown away that tuition alone was almost $10,000. That's just a state school. If I were to pay that now, I would be spending $100,000.00 as it took me 5 years to get there. With that kind of money put in a good mutual fund.... well, it's something to think about.

I was thinking about being and Engineer, Musician, or Auto Mechanic when I decided. Those other options would look a lot better today.

 

[noharleyyet]

The "new normal" could very well be a re-evaluation of the curriculum vitae vs resume.

 

[Nameless Range]

I guess if you are comparing a crappy college experience to online then online is better.

Asking question, personalized help + lessons, review and critique of your work... how does any of that happen substantively online.


I think my intro courses freshman year were capped at 50? I don't ever remember being in a class with over 30... junior and senior year most of my courses were 10 or less and I had several senior seminars that were 3 students. You aren't going to duplicate that experience watching youtube, even the best interactive online class feel lacking.

I can sympathize with things like being irritated while the teacher caters to the lowest common denominator in a given classroom, answering crappy questions to which the answers had already been stated. Lots of time wasted.

I don't know how many hours I spent watching powerpoints while the professor regurgitated what was on them. I could have done that elsewhere and in half the time.

I sat through numerous introductory courses with hundreds of students in giant lecture halls. I would just get the syllabus, study for the tests, and skip 90% of class in those cases where presence wasn't required.

Perhaps those are arguments against shitty teaching in general, but that is the system that exists for many. I like the idea of having control of my schedule. There's more freedom and if one is responsible, more efficiency (could be a disaster for 19 year olds). I also like the idea of being able to apply a focus on the things I need to focus on while breezing past stuff I don't. Online training seems like it has more options for personalization.

I would agree that the hybrid approach is a very good one for most classes. And to be clear I don't think online classes will replace traditional education fully. Some things just have to be learned in person or in a group, but I would predict that the role of online education will eclipse that of traditional education, and in short order. One is largely stagnant and has a terrible ROI in many cases, and the other is just going to get better and better as time progresses.

To clarify again, there are those for whom online training just won't click and I'm not saying it's all or nothing. I largely speak for myself in preferring the freedom to leverage my schedule and focus, but I don't think I am alone.

 

[Nameless Range]

All that aside, I think the chief issue is cost. The ROI is indefensible for so much college education that ocurrs.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

All that aside, I think the chief issue is cost. The ROI is indefensible for so much college education that occurs.

I feel like this topic is rife for potential to come off as a elitist a-hole and I'm on the verge of diving into that chasm...

I agree with both your statements, the ROI on big state schools is definitely borderline. If you weren't a good student in HS, and you don't want to turn over a new leaf/pursue a career that requires a degree, you absolutely will get a better ROI with a trade school or job specific degree at a JC. There is no value anymore in going to some of the exorbitantly expensive state schools and getting C's... you are wasting your time and money.

That being said there are also intrinsically valuable careers, that require a college degree, where the ROI isn't measured in dollars.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

I can sympathize with things like being irritated while the teacher caters to the lowest common denominator in a given classroom, answering crappy questions to which the answers had already been stated. Lots of time wasted.

I don't know how many hours I spent watching powerpoints while the professor regurgitated what was on them. I could have done that elsewhere and in half the time.

I sat through numerous introductory courses with hundreds of students in giant lecture halls. I would just get the syllabus, study for the tests, and skip 90% of class in those cases where presence wasn't required.

Perhaps those are arguments against shitty teaching in general, but that is the system that exists for many. I like the idea of having control of my schedule. There's more freedom and if one is responsible, more efficiency (could be a disaster for 19 year olds). I also like the idea of being able to apply a focus on the things I need to focus on while breezing past stuff I don't. Online training seems like it has more options for personalization.

I would agree that the hybrid approach is a very good one for most classes. And to be clear I don't think online classes will replace traditional education fully. Some things just have to be learned in person or in a group, but I would predict that the role of online education will eclipse that of traditional education, and in short order. One is largely stagnant and has a terrible ROI in many cases, and the other is just going to get better and better as time progresses.

To clarify again, there are those for whom online training just won't click and I'm not saying it's all or nothing. I largely speak for myself in preferring the freedom to leverage my schedule and focus, but I don't think I am alone.

I will say my experience in college was mostly better than this. I did have issues with Chemistry and Differential Equations though. My instructors for my core classes were great though.

 

[Nameless Range]

I feel like this topic is rife for potential to come off as a elitist a-hole and I'm on the verge of diving into that chasm...

That being said there are also intrinsically valuable careers, that require a college degree, where the ROI isn't measured in dollars.

I think you've traversed the chasm and I totally agree.

I've written a lot of negative stuff about college in this thread.

I had many great professors in college and developed passions about things I never would have if it would have been solely online. I often think of one of the finest teachers of anything I have ever had, Rick Graetz, who changed the way I look at Geography, and how his classes changed my life. I would do it all over again for sure.

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in 5 years.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

I feel like this topic is rife for potential to come off as a elitist a-hole and I'm on the verge of diving into that chasm...

I agree with both your statements, the ROI on big state schools is definitely borderline. If you weren't a good student in HS, and you don't want to turn over a new leaf/pursue a career that requires a degree, you absolutely will get a better ROI with a trade school or job specific degree at a JC. There is no value anymore in going to some of the exorbitantly expensive state schools and getting C's... you are wasting your time and money.

That being said there are also intrinsically valuable careers, that require a college degree, where the ROI isn't measured in dollars.

I can appreciate that.... I also don't think you are being an elitist a-hole. My immediate thoughts are that the ROI is pretty important unless you can do it without debt. I don't know what I would do with $100,000 of college debt, fresh out of school, making $60K.

I can see why folks live with their parents long after graduation.

If you are talking career satisfaction.... I definitely understand, but I still have a problem with the numbers. Seems soul crushing to me.

Available credit has really driven up the cost on everything..... especially education.



BTW, what careers were you thinking? (I'm really not trying to be a jerk. I'm actually interested in your perspective.)

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I can appreciate that.... I also don't think you are being an elitist a-hole. My immediate thoughts are that the ROI is pretty important unless you can do it without debt. I don't know what I would do with $100,000 of college debt, fresh out of school, making $60K.

I can see why folks live with their parents long after graduation.

If you are talking career satisfaction.... I definitely understand, but I still have a problem with the numbers. Seems soul crushing to me.

Available credit has really driven up the cost on everything..... especially education.



BTW, what careers were you thinking? (I'm really not trying to be a jerk. I'm actually interested in your perspective.)

Try 200k for physicians and they make 59K-75k for residency and fellowship (first 3-9 years of being a MD or DO). DOs on average carry a higher debt load. Student loans can be placed in deferment during residency (depends on the provider) but they still accrue interest. I have several friends whose debt ballooned to over 500k in total repayment.

A school bus driver takes home more money than a doctor until that doctor has been practicing for 7 years... in other words if there are 2 18 year olds the one who decides to become a doctor won't take home more money until they are at least 37 (though given average age of medschool matriculates age 40).

Doctors vs Bus Drivers - Who makes more?

Find out what it really costs to become an MD. Is medical school worth it?

www.boardvitals.com

I'm not shooting for a total thread derailment but I think this does demonstrate that even the typical guaranteed ROI careers like MDs and JDs are a little dicey for Gen X-Z.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

BTW, what careers were you thinking? (I'm really not trying to be a jerk. I'm actually interested in your perspective.)

Teachers, social workers, lawyers (public defenders), state scientists eg wildlife biologists, etc.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Try 200k for physicians and they make 59K-75k for residency and fellowship (first 3-9 years of being a MD or DO). DOs on average carry a higher debt load. Student loans can be placed in deferment during residency (depends on the provider) but they still accrue interest. I have several friends whose debt ballooned to over 500k in total repayment.
View attachment 139261
A school bus driver take home more money than a doctor until that doctor has been practicing for 7 years... in other words if there are 2 18 year olds the one who decides to become a doctor won't take home more money until they are at least 37 (though given average age of medschool matriculates age 40).

Doctors vs Bus Drivers - Who makes more?

Find out what it really costs to become an MD. Is medical school worth it?

www.boardvitals.com

I'm not shooting for a total thread derailment but I think this does demonstrate that even the typical guaranteed ROI careers like MDs and JDs are a little dicey for Gen X-Z.

Yeah, that's definitely a want to career. There's definitely a payoff at the end if you do your part, but that is so extreme.

I have a friend that is an ER doctor.... he got there with a Chem E degree. I think he is out of the woods making good money now. I know I couldn't do it.

 

[El Jason]

That being said there are also intrinsically valuable careers, that require a college degree, where the ROI isn't measured in dollars.

It still has to be part of the equation.

 

[Irrelevant]

I can sympathize with things like being irritated while the teacher caters to the lowest common denominator in a given classroom, answering crappy questions to which the answers had already been stated. Lots of time wasted.

I don't know how many hours I spent watching powerpoints while the professor regurgitated what was on them. I could have done that elsewhere and in half the time.

I sat through numerous introductory courses with hundreds of students in giant lecture halls. I would just get the syllabus, study for the tests, and skip 90% of class in those cases where presence wasn't required.

Perhaps those are arguments against shitty teaching in general, but that is the system that exists for many. I like the idea of having control of my schedule. There's more freedom and if one is responsible, more efficiency (could be a disaster for 19 year olds). I also like the idea of being able to apply a focus on the things I need to focus on while breezing past stuff I don't. Online training seems like it has more options for personalization.

I would agree that the hybrid approach is a very good one for most classes. And to be clear I don't think online classes will replace traditional education fully. Some things just have to be learned in person or in a group, but I would predict that the role of online education will eclipse that of traditional education, and in short order. One is largely stagnant and has a terrible ROI in many cases, and the other is just going to get better and better as time progresses.

To clarify again, there are those for whom online training just won't click and I'm not saying it's all or nothing. I largely speak for myself in preferring the freedom to leverage my schedule and focus, but I don't think I am alone.

My entire college experience can be distilled into me reminding myself to stick it out to get the piece of paper. I can't say I learned much of anything, if fact, I often found myself thankful for attending a small high school, where I was not just another face just a number, but a person they cared about. Had it not been for my wonderful high school education I would have never gotten through the physics and chemistry series in college, the professors were simply too terrible to teach anything. It wasn't until college that I started to believe the saying that if you can't "do", teach.

However, that piece of paper opened up doors that I could have never considered with just a high school education. As I've moved up in our company I've advocated more and more to stop paying a lick of attention to which school people went to, or what grades they got. I'm a firm believer that in a hour long interview you can find out much more about the quality of the person, but just talking to them and listening to what they say and how they conduct themselves.