Welfare Rancher Builds Problem Fence

[Bambistew]

Good post Buzz. I agree with you 100%... TEI has done more for wildlife than most every rancher put together. So what if they only let the "supper" rich on... At least the wildlife is benifitting from it... I'm pretty sure that It would be impossible for TEI to shut people out of the Madison. As far as I know they only boarder about a 3-4 mile section, and I'm pretty sure that the land adjacent to the river in that secion is wildernes...

 

[Ten Bears]

Can anybody post a map of what you're talking about?

 

[Nemont]

Bambi,
I didn't say they shut people out of the Madison, I have fished along the shore and ran into TEI employees who let it me known they didn't want me there and made sure I didn't get anywhere near the high water mark.

Watch what happens though as more and more of these trophy ranches are bought up. Montana's stream access law will be challenged in the courts and in the legislature.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I guess the truth hurts?

Why any good Republican would have an issue with big-business doing what they do best...making money, buying ranches, etc. is beyond me.

Isnt that just how the land of opportunity is supposed to work?

If you dont like it, get into the advertising business, make a cool 40 billion and buy up the land and show us how its done. Run your ranches to make a profit, graze it to dirt, I couldnt care less. Just dont bitch because some people have different ideas on whats important. I dont have a problem with any rancher putting wildlife ahead of profit, cattle, or anything else. Only a moron would.

I find it entertaining that you choose to bash (1) rancher and his wildlife management practices, while the welfare ranchers across the West systematically tear apart YOUR public lands and your wildlife??? Oh, but they're allowed because they have to make a profit??? You know how dumb that sounds? You're worrying about 140,000 acres thats managed for quality habitat, while your public lands are being raped??? WTF, over. If we get our public lands back in good health, those measly 140,000 acres Turner owns wouldnt get your panties all bunched up.

Theres lots of ranchers in Montana that lease their land, outfit it, and charge for access. TEI is doing the same thing and they are allowed to.

I agree with you that the commoner is being used as a "tool" for wildlife management on those ranches, but you can thank the FWP and the MT fish and game commission for that...you elect the Governor and they appoint the commission...largely made up of landowners and outfitters...WTF do expect? I've made posts many times on here that the FWP needs to start playing hardball with these ranchers, I'd demand way more access, or they could just keep the damn elk on their land. The problem is, the Commission wont have it, and neither will the average sportsmen. All they see is some sort of opportunity to "git thar elk" and cater to ranchers.

The mess we're in is exactly what we've all allowed to happen...take a look in the mirror and thank the guy you see staring back...

And trust me, things are only going to get worse, as evidenced by decreased access, more fee hunting, and hunters continued complancency.

My point is, you're railing one guy, when one guy is not the problem.

I see no reason why you're comparing the average rancher and Turner, its pointless.

I look out for wildlife and if what Turner does improves wildlife and hunting in MT, which I know it does, then so be it. Better than some welfare rancher trashing my wildlife and public lands...period.

Seems to me we've become a society of choosing the lesser of the evils, I'm simply doing the same thing...

 

[Tom]

I'm similar to 280 in not knowing much about this, but I still dissagree with him. That logic is in error there 280, if you don't know anything, you can't conclude anything, and be correct. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Here's something I know. I have read that there are laws about the fences allowed. I remember reading somewhere that the bottom strand has to be so high, like 14 or 17 inches, I forgot that number. That is enough for antelope and deer to get under, I guess. Isn't there a law that says what kind of fence you can put up? If not, why not?

What does the law say about this fence or any fence there?

 

[Nemont]

I guess the truth hurts?

Why any good Republican would have an issue with big-business doing what they do best...making money, buying ranches, etc. is beyond me.

Isnt that just how the land of opportunity is supposed to work?

Just dont bitch because some people have different ideas on whats important.

Tell me where I said Ted doesn't have a right to do what he wants. If TEI puts wildlife first, they have that luxury.

You may want to READ what is in my orginal post. I could care less how Ted ranches. It is his land to what he wants with. If you choose lesser of two evils fine. I have never said that the the public land shouldn't be in good shape or that ranchers shouldn't pay more.

To say TEI has anything to do with a real ranch is wrong. They have nothing in common with their neighbors period.


Again if you think Ted, and his kind, are the answer to way the west should be developed then fine you can be on his side. I am not anti Ted or any other land owner. Private deeded land is just that, private. As long as you are not doing any illegal activity on it you should be allowed to with it as you please. In addition if a land owner is also taking care of public land and it is in good shape they should be left alone also.


Also what pisses me off is you thinking that only you know how to hunt or manage anything. The crack about me driving up and down a road wanting a bull is pure and utter bullshit and that same attitude comes through in the stuff you post. I have not attacked you personally. I may have called you stupid in the CRP thread but I have not questioned your hunting ethics period. I don't why you chose to do that but that is what makes you feel better, go for it.

So you know where I am coming from A. I am not anti TEI B. I don't believe public lands should be in poor shape C. I support private property rights and D. I think you suffer from little man's syndrome because you feel a need to question a persons hunting ethics when you know absolutely nothing about him.

I also find it interesting that you are such a supporter of a place that has canned, high fenced hunts. I am not certain how that is good for wildlife and hunters; They say it is a free ranging bison herd but it is fenced in on the ranch. The herd can't migrate off the property. http://www.mnstate.edu/kienholz/bison3.htm

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I should have worded the "drive down the road and dust a bull" thing better, I apologize for that. The attitude you expressed was one of "if I cant hunt Turners then I may as well join Peta". Sounded to me like you were plenty pissed that you couldnt hunt Turners, and yes, you (not meaning "you" Nemont, but YOU the PUBLIC, could very easily dust a big sixer from the comfort of the truck. I say, get off your ass and hunt the adjacent public lands and you'd probably have some great hunting and more than likely kill a good bull. Teds management is providing opportunity for the public, both on his lands and surrounding public lands. Thats a BENEFIT to Montana hunters. Allowing the cows and does to be hunted by the commoner is not denying access either, but if you believe it is, I wont argue any further.

You were and are wrong that he denies commoners hunting opportunities on his land, flat assed wrong. I agree with you that the access he provides is minimal for trophy game...but I wonder how many guides and outfitters would let you (you meaning the PUBLIC) hunt their leases for trophy game????

I believe you're an ethical hunter, I apologize again for that not being worded more carefully (see above).

For the record, again, thank the legislature, and DOL over the right to hunt "livestock". Because the DOL chose to support ranchers and classify bison as livestock, Turner, and every other swinging-dick that has bison can legally conduct "hunts". If they were classified as big-game they'd be conducting NO bison hunts. Its also fair to note that the DOL was a big supporter in trying to classify elk as "livestock" to avoid the game farm ban...great bunch of people looking out for the commoners, right???

Whats the common saying on this board again? "well, if its legal, I'm going to do it?"

Great answer.

I dont agree with the bison hunts either, but because of the legal definition of livestock, I have as much power to change that as I do you blasting an angus in your yard or lopping the head off a chicken in your front yard...thank you DOL...and thank you average MT hunters for making a stand on the issue...and thank you FWP commission for catering to the landowners...

Oh, and Nemont, I have a question with your statement here:

"Again if you think Ted, and his kind, are the answer to way the west should be developed then fine you can be on his side."

Ted doesnt "develop" the West, he does the opposite. The Red Rock Ranch has only a couple houses left out of about a dozen on it when he bought it. Also, most, if not all the cross fencing is gone.

Development is what most Montana Ranchers who care about wildlife do when they sell out...sub-divide into 5-20 acre Ranchettes, make a huge profit and cut the fat hog in the ass.

I guess between those two forms of "development" I'll take Teds way...

 

[Nemont]

"Again if you think Ted, and his kind, are the answer to way the west should be developed then fine you can be on his side."

Buzz I should have said if you think the answer to the issues the west faces is the model of TEI and other's like it, then fine. Development was the incorrect word.

You were and are wrong that he denies commoners hunting opportunities on his land, flat assed wrong. I agree with you that the access he provides is minimal for trophy game...but I wonder how many guides and outfitters would let you (you meaning the PUBLIC) hunt their leases for trophy game????

How many trophy hunts are allowed to none paying customers? Why do you think TEI does that? I can hunt does and cow elk on a lot of other private deeded land which is outfitted. I don't know what that proves. I was incorrect with saying NOBODY gets to hunt there. I just don't see TEI as a huge benefit to Montana Sportsman apparently you do.


Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

You're right, I dont see TEI as a huge benefit to most Montana Sportsmen, only to those that are smart enough to figure out that there are opportunities to cash in on. But, that would take work, and its easier to bitch about a landowner who manages for wildlife than it is to take advantage of a good deal.

Its no different than hunting the area surrounding YellowstonePark...theres opportunity provided by the elk having someplace they can grow old...and big. You cant hunt the Park, but you can hunt the surrounding area.

Also, not everything has to revolve around whats best for sportsmen, sometimes its OK for wildlife to be the priority over someones assumed god-given right to hunt where they want and kill what they want.

Wildlife management is not about wildlife management anymore, its about outfitter, rancher, farmer, sportsmen, etc. etc. etc. management. Wildlife itself is way down the list.

 

[BigHornRam]

Tom,

The article I am referencing is written by Jack Atcheson Jr. and is in the fall issue of Wild Sheep magazine. In it he says that the fence is in violation of the Taylor Grazing Act. The lowest strand of wire is so low, that Jacks black lab has a hard time finding a place to go under it.

Ten,

I can't find you a map of the area, but the fence in question is about 5 miles east of Ruby River Reservoir, and runs due south from there.

Buzz,

The telling part of all this, is that if any other rancher did this, you would be having a bird. If any other rancher was having canned bison or angus hunts, you would be making a big deal over it. Your tone and rhetoric is what gets you into trouble. These are complex problems and there are no easy solutions. Knock off the welfare rancher crap, and I'll do the same. And try to look at the big picture once and a while.

Paul

 

[Nemont]

Buzz,

Also, not everything has to revolve around whats best for sportsmen, sometimes its OK for wildlife to be the priority over someones assumed god-given right to hunt where they want and kill what they want.

Do me a favor and go back and read what the my very first reply on this thread was. Now tell me where I said anything regarding a "god-given" right to hunt where I want and kill what I want. No where did I say that working hard for a trophy animal is something that I am not willing to do. Look at this board the guys who consistently tag big bucks and bulls every year work hard for them.

I think the it boils down to this. You think we and the wildlife of the state of Montana are better off with billionaire landowners. I happen to think that smaller operators who can remain profitable are more advantageous to our State and to the tradition of hunting.

I am done discussing the virtues of TEI with you as most likely you will never convince me that ole Ted is into anything for anyone but himself. He has been lucky to prosper under our economic system and maybe he feels he can be real generous and give all of us an opportunity to hunt the public land that borders of his ranch. That is totally up to him.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Paul,

Jack Jr. and Sr. have had nothing but bad to say about Turner since day one...I'd guess because they didnt get the outfitting rights and/or consulting rights on his property.

I like the Atchesons, think they're ethical, but they're like you on how they view Turner. No matter how much the guy does for wildlife he's still a no-good bastard. They feed from the same trough as any other consulting or outfitting business, and their agenda is pretty clear. I know they'd be singing a different tune if they were the ones promoting his high-dollar hunts on TEI and making money from it. They did open up the State lands (with much help from MT sportsmen) and they do seem to care about the average Sportsmen a bit more than most in their profession. But, the bottom line is, I believe they would sell out the average guy in the end if it came down to it, maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am.

You're also wrong about me giving TEI a pass, I fought with them on many things they wanted to do...and I won a few battles. I know Ted, his son Beau, and the ranch managers well enough to know that this problem with the fences will not be a problem. Wildlife is the priority on any of TEI property I've ever been involved with. In fact, I heard the comment once that "if the bison interfere with the health of the land or the wildlife...sell them." Once you make your case in a concise and intelligent manner, they're usually pretty good about doing the right thing, at least in my experience. Much of the bad-blood between TEI and the various agencies was over-zealous behaviour and lack of communication from day one. I think things have greatly improved and cooperation is much better than its ever been. There will always be head-butting, but thats just life.

Paul, read my response to the bison hunts, I dont agree with them on anyones land. But, I dont care to tackle the DOL over it when theres "bigger" picture things that need attention. Like 60% of my BLM lands being in piss poor condition, my salmon runs being 1/20 of historic runs, etc. etc. etc.

I think maybe you should take your own advice and look at the big picture...

As to my Tone and rhetoric, at least its consistant, and my number one priority is land and wildlife health. If you dont like it, well, too bad.

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont, you said, "So what good does all the babitat in the world do if only the wealthy get to hunt or enjoy it. If that is the model you prefer and encourage I guess the rest of us should just join PETA and put an end to hunting."

I just explained what GOOD the quality habitat Turner has will do an average sportsmen with ambition and more than two firing brain cells.

The quality animals dont stay on TEI property all the time, thats a fact. If it wasnt for the amount of quality habitat and good management on TEI property, there wouldnt be ANY quality animals that wander off onto public lands. Dont believe me? Open it up to public hunting and see what happens to the quality of the elk/deer, etc. I bet within a couple years the average aged bull killed would be a 2 1/2 year old raghorn versus the 8+ year old bulls that score 300+ they currently kill. I've seen the harvest stats, practically all the bulls killed on the D are 8+ and I'm sure the average score is 320+. Do you think the same is true on public lands????

You make it sound as if having quality animals on private lands is pointless unless you personally get to hunt. These are wild animals we're talking about, they do cross fences.

Nemont, you also said, "I think the it boils down to this. You think we and the wildlife of the state of Montana are better off with billionaire landowners. I happen to think that smaller operators who can remain profitable are more advantageous to our State and to the tradition of hunting."

What makes you say that, when you know that there are not many, if any, small operators who can give wildlife the nod over their profit margin? Turner does give widlife the priority, over everything else, something that I've never seen a small operator do. How can you bash him for that if you really care about wildlife and the health of the land?

I dont think Montana is better off with only billionaire landowners. I dont trust any landowners, small or large. I dont believe either one has my best interests as a sportsman in mind either. Thats why I rarely hunt private and dont spend much time worrying about TEI or small operators. I spend my time hunting on public and fight for public lands and its proper management. I do have a dog in that fight....

 

[Nemont]

You make it sound as if having quality animals on private lands is pointless unless you personally get to hunt. These are wild animals we're talking about, they do cross fences.

That is not my feelings at all. I don't think that I should personally be allowed to hunt the Flying D. First off it is so far away that I don't even want to drive that far as I have good to great hunting here. I would rather take my chances on drawing an elk tag in the breaks and only hunting once in a while then hunt over there. So it is not about me at all.

I have witnessed TEI employees patrol and push animals away from their fences so they don't cross as well. Do critters cross the fences on to public land, sure. Tell me this with the number of people flooding into the Gallatin Valley and into Big Sky why don't we hear how great the hunting is on the lands bordering TEI property?

Hunters are the worst people to keep a secret. If the hunting is really good they talk about. If the hunting was great bordering TEI property there are enough dedicated, committed and hardcore hunters around Bozeman to find the elk and consistently tag them. I haven't heard that mentioned, maybe I just travel in the wrong circles.

What makes you say that, when you know that there are not many, if any, small operators who can give wildlife the nod over their profit margin? Turner does give widlife the priority, over everything else, something that I've never seen a small operator do. How can you bash him for that if you really care about wildlife and the health of the land?

Who do you think will lead more young people into hunting? Entities like TEI or 500 smaller operators who are part of the community? If you ever want to succeed in your quest to rid public land of cattle ranchers then you need more sportsman to brainwash. If TEI is the model used fewer young people will become involved in wildlife and hunting issues. If you don't recruit more people to care about hunting and the tradition of hunting then the antihunting crowd will win.

I am not bashing him I said he can do what he wants with his land. Also if any other land owner put in a fence that was rumored to impede game animals, if they held canned hunts and they took money from the federal coffers you would be the first to label them no good, fat assed ATV riding, welfare ranchers but since you have personally benefited from the particular owner that is accecptable.

You have your opinion and are entitled to it. Doesn't make you right.

Nemont

 

[Tom]

We need to check the allotment management plan, it
"describes the type, location, ownership, and general specifications for the range improvements to be installed"

This is from Title43, Chapter35, SubchapterI, Section 1702.

(k) An “allotment management plan” means a document prepared in consultation with the lessees or permittees involved, which applies to livestock operations on the public lands or on lands within National Forests in the eleven contiguous Western States and which:
(1) prescribes the manner in, and extent to, which livestock operations will be conducted in order to meet the multiple-use, sustained-yield, economic and other needs and objectives as determined for the lands by the Secretary concerned; and
(2) describes the type, location, ownership, and general specifications for the range improvements to be installed and maintained on the lands to meet the livestock grazing and other objectives of land management; and
(3) contains such other provisions relating to livestock grazing and other objectives found by the Secretary concerned to be consistent with the provisions of this Act and other applicable law.

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

Try to stay on track.

I dont think Ted should get his BLM and State leases for a buck forty eight an AUM just like the rest of the welfare ranchers shouldnt either. I also made it pretty clear that I aint in favor of the bison hunts either. I also am not in favor of any fences that impede big-game movements. What I am in favor of is any landowner who favors wildlife over trashing his and MY public lands for a profit.

That said, I have seen the fences in question and I saw elk and deer jump them daily, I saw antelope slip through them as well. Also saw a bull moose go through/over one once as well. I think the problem is being grossly exaggerated and I'm 100 percent sure the problem will be addressed by TEI and the FWP.

I could say the same about you, I dont hear you railing any other land owners for locking up their lands, charging for hunting, installing high fences, or denying access to public lands. I wonder why that is? I also find it amusing that you trash TEI for allowing cow hunts, but have hunted there yourself...strong set of values you have there. Maybe you should have sent Ted a thank you note.

I think Turner does some good things for promoting youth hunting. When I worked for TEI, the Snowcrest had a bunch of kids (around 60 if I remember right, and most were locals) hunt the ranch free of charge throughout the season.

But, you're right, TEI does nothing for wildlife or promoting youth hunting.

Dont you think its a little lop-sided asking this question? 500 small operators VS One large landowner???? How about comparing what TEI does VS the average small operator? Thats a no-brainer there.

How about this, can you name any other landowners that give out even 2 youth bull tags on their property each year that have an outfitted ranch or an outfitter working their property?

 

[Nemont]

Buzz,
I am on track. I never said that TEI does nothing for wildlife. You need to read more and quit putting words into my mouth. I never said anything against the cow hunt so you need to back off my "set of values" which again you don't know diddly about. Go read my posts and tell me where I "railed" against TEI.

That said, I have seen the fences in question and I saw elk and deer jump them daily, I saw antelope slip through them as well. Also saw a bull moose go through/over one once as well. I think the problem is being grossly exaggerated and I'm 100 percent sure the problem will be addressed by TEI and the FWP.

I agree with you that the commoner is being used as a "tool" for wildlife management on those ranches, but you can thank the FWP and the MT fish and game commission for that...you elect the Governor and they appoint the commission...largely made up of landowners and outfitters...WTF do expect

First explain why you have confidence in the FWP working out the issue of the fence but you said they only care about land owners and outfitters not wild life.

Secondly the only reference I made about the fences was in saying that if anyone, other then TEI, was accused of such a thing you would jump on the band wagon to bash them without even looking into the facts. I personally don't think a barbed wire fence, at standard height would impede elk or deer. I also believe you when you said the electricity was not turned on. So the fence for me is mostly a non issue.

My sole reason for the my first reply was that I disagree with you regarding TEI and the lofty place you hold for them in your view of the world. You are entitled to your view. I most likely won't come to view TEI as doing anything to help my hunting or my children's hunting future.

I do take exception to your insinuation that my "values" are skewed when you misquoted me. If you can produced any evidence that I "railed" against cow hunting on TEI property and said Ted is evil the produce it. If not you should quit putting words in my mouth and making judgement on my values until you at least meet me in person to see for yourself.

I do respect the TEI for keeping their properties as a working ranches, I respect that they employ many Montanans on their places and I respect that they pay their property taxes, I respect that they donated conservation easements on their properties to keep them undeveloped for future generations. They are fortunate to not have to make a profit from their operations in order to stay in business.

Nemont

 

[cjcj]

Buzz can`t you have a conversation without attacking people? You went after me on immigration [what a joke]..are you on the rag? are you drinking?[mean drunk]...someone with your obvious intellect could go alot farther without unneccesary implications/accusations.....Yes i`m guilty too..but its always in responce...you can bring out the worst in some of us..so sonny boy you stop it right now! or i`m coming up there ..and i will bring the corporal [cass irons] with me. hump

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I dont have much faith in the FWP doing the right thing, but I do have faith that TEI will, as their track record of placing wildlife in high regard is very apparent both in the quality of the habitat found on their lands as well as the quality of the wildlife found there. I would have more faith in the MTFWP if they werent wrapped around the finger of a corrupt commission made up of ranchers, farmers, and outfitters...all appointed by partisan politicians.

I believe you've made up your mind on TEI despite the facts. First you said they provide no hunting opportunities to anyone, then it was very little, then it was only cow and does for management reasons, then you admit you've actually hunted the D. I guess you getting to hunt the D didnt actually provide you, as a hunter, any opportunity? You did get an elk there when you hunted it didnt you? Then its they do nothing for youth and promoting hunting, then they do, but not compared to 500 small operators. You seem confused. I understand its tough for you to argue when the facts prove you wrong.

I cant help that you're short-sighted on your views of TEI and other ranchers that actually do place wildlife higher on the list than just another pain in their ass or another way to collect from the taxpayer/sportsmen...like many do.

I think the quality of the animals and the quality of the habitat TEI provides speaks volumes...just like I think other places being grazed to dirt and supporting no wildlife also speaks for itself. I think other ranchers and the FWP should take out their note pads and pens...

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

This quote from you explains it all: "I dont trust any landowners"

You do not like the concept of individuals owning land, and your bias towards those that do come through loud and clear. Some land owners are good , and some are bad, but starting out with a negative attitude will not help solve any conflicts. You need to be little more open minded once and a while. I'll admit, some of my bias towards Ted is just as rediculous as some of your bias towards George Bush. You've made some good points here but they have been buried by all your jackass comments.

That's THE BIG PICTURE! If you want to gain support from a majority of people, you need to learn to be a little more diplomatic. Your attack style of debate, although it can be entertaining, actually drives more people away from your causes than recruits. If you want to be successfull in getting you point accross, tone it down a bit.

Paul