BigHornyRam
New member
I think Ithaca is getting his ass handed to him! What do you all think?
Paul
Paul
WELCOME HANGER....
- Thread starter Moosie
- Start date
Ithaca 37
New member
Hanger, Here's what you posted on 5/16 at 16:42
"And why did you include Gun Owners of America in this list? You have a problem with Larry Pratt ....."
I really can't be wasting my time with anyone who doesn't remember what they posted today.
Good luck with your crusade to convince people the BRC isn't a bunch of looney tunes.
" Loudest of these is a wise-use front for ORV manufacturers and extractive industries called the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which shouts that the administration is trying to shut down all public use of the national forests. It's hard to figure why the motorheads are making such a fuss, unless they're fund-raising. Restrictions on ORV use were never part of the President's proposal."
http://magazine.audubon.org/clintonlaststand.html
Here's some more about the BRC:
"James Monteith, Northwest field representative of REP America, accused the coalition in an Aug. 9 news conference in Billings of “peddling an unbalanced, extreme position on public lands access that is curtailing the very freedom they say they’re defending.”"
http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=2759&issue=91
"Rebecca Watson, assistant secretary for land and minerals management, has ties to the conservative Mountain States Legal Foundation and a history of representing mining and timber interests as an attorney in Montana. She has provided legal advice to the Blue Ribbon Coalition, a group fighting for more off-road vehicle access to public lands......"
http://www.consciouschoice.com/note/note1503.html
Hanger, sorry, but you're being duped and manipulated by Clark Collins. Wake up and smell the coffee! Look at who's funding the BRC!
Look who's advising it's members to check the BRC site!
They're using the BRC to alert Sierra Clubbers!
"The Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC) is one of the most effective organizations fighting for all users access. They understand anti-access activists and use the same methods they use to fight them (lawsuits, Freedom Of Information Act Requests and PAC contributions etc). You can also sign up for their access alerts at www.sharetrails.org"
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-16-2003 19:46: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
"And why did you include Gun Owners of America in this list? You have a problem with Larry Pratt ....."
I really can't be wasting my time with anyone who doesn't remember what they posted today.
Good luck with your crusade to convince people the BRC isn't a bunch of looney tunes.
" Loudest of these is a wise-use front for ORV manufacturers and extractive industries called the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which shouts that the administration is trying to shut down all public use of the national forests. It's hard to figure why the motorheads are making such a fuss, unless they're fund-raising. Restrictions on ORV use were never part of the President's proposal."
http://magazine.audubon.org/clintonlaststand.html
Here's some more about the BRC:
"James Monteith, Northwest field representative of REP America, accused the coalition in an Aug. 9 news conference in Billings of “peddling an unbalanced, extreme position on public lands access that is curtailing the very freedom they say they’re defending.”"
http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=2759&issue=91
"Rebecca Watson, assistant secretary for land and minerals management, has ties to the conservative Mountain States Legal Foundation and a history of representing mining and timber interests as an attorney in Montana. She has provided legal advice to the Blue Ribbon Coalition, a group fighting for more off-road vehicle access to public lands......"
http://www.consciouschoice.com/note/note1503.html
Hanger, sorry, but you're being duped and manipulated by Clark Collins. Wake up and smell the coffee! Look at who's funding the BRC!
Look who's advising it's members to check the BRC site!
"The Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC) is one of the most effective organizations fighting for all users access. They understand anti-access activists and use the same methods they use to fight them (lawsuits, Freedom Of Information Act Requests and PAC contributions etc). You can also sign up for their access alerts at www.sharetrails.org"
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-16-2003 19:46: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
Is Ithaca really getting his ass handed to him Paul?
And the gates continue to go up on a National Forest near you!
Hey Paul, been any new road closers in the last few years near T. Falls? Superior area? Ninemile?
Better get the check book out, the BRC is sucking hind tit, and they need your help.
There will be more and more areas closed to ATV's, snowmobiles, etc. all the time, and the BRC wont be doing much to slow that trend down.
Count on lots more restricted use areas in the future.
And the gates continue to go up on a National Forest near you!
Hey Paul, been any new road closers in the last few years near T. Falls? Superior area? Ninemile?
Better get the check book out, the BRC is sucking hind tit, and they need your help.
There will be more and more areas closed to ATV's, snowmobiles, etc. all the time, and the BRC wont be doing much to slow that trend down.
Count on lots more restricted use areas in the future.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, tell me what we ATV riders lost in Idaho. Yopu still haven't explained that yet. BTW, we have gates going down in the Coeur d' Alene's (legally), something about an illegal travel plan or something (I'm not certain how it all worked out).
cjcj
New member
question for ithaca do you think that the militia group`s on our southern border`s are LOONEY TUNES?
BuzzH
Well-known member
Come on Ten Bears, you must not have your head that far in the sand.
Have you ridden your ATV to Fish Lake lately? You know, the Fish Lake in Kelly Creek.
That was a pretty big hit to the ATV crowd when that was shut down. The MT side, the proposed great burn Wilderness Area was also shut down to ATV's. I guess it only closed a few hundred thousand acres of land to ATV use. You didnt lose anything though.
Taken a look at the new travel plan maps lately?...lots of new closers. The USFS was buying gates by the semi-load when I worked for the Superior Ranger District in the mid-90's and I dont ever recall seeing a gate laying around anywhere. I bet they still purchase gates....
Keep on believing you arent losing anything and the BRC is protecting your rights...HAHAHAHAHA.
Have you ridden your ATV to Fish Lake lately? You know, the Fish Lake in Kelly Creek.
That was a pretty big hit to the ATV crowd when that was shut down. The MT side, the proposed great burn Wilderness Area was also shut down to ATV's. I guess it only closed a few hundred thousand acres of land to ATV use. You didnt lose anything though.
Taken a look at the new travel plan maps lately?...lots of new closers. The USFS was buying gates by the semi-load when I worked for the Superior Ranger District in the mid-90's and I dont ever recall seeing a gate laying around anywhere. I bet they still purchase gates....
Keep on believing you arent losing anything and the BRC is protecting your rights...HAHAHAHAHA.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, gate are just that, gates. They open, they close, and their there to restrict access, but they don't always mean total access restriction. Most gates I know of allow ATV travel. I never did ride into Fish Lake (the Kelly Cr. one), I always hiked. What's your point? Not bad fishing last time I was there, but that's been a few years. When was the last time you made it into Heart Lake?
MarlandS
New member
I tend to wonder about non-related orgs. joining forces. Does anyone really think that the rank and file of say BRC who are not gun-owners are going to rally behind GOA issues and vice-versa?
Why does it always seem the "biased" cry goes out at moments of desperation? Like I said before you can beat many points Ithaca makes just by doing some research. It is almost never a total win on any issue for either side until the combatants lose focus.
BTW welcome hanger!
Why does it always seem the "biased" cry goes out at moments of desperation? Like I said before you can beat many points Ithaca makes just by doing some research. It is almost never a total win on any issue for either side until the combatants lose focus.
BTW welcome hanger!
Hangar18
New member
OK, I understand your point about GOA. Not your own list, my bad. Sorry about that.
I'm sure you could find hundreds of quotes like the ones you posted.
However, you have yet to find something meaningful that comes from an unbiased source. That's like asking handguncontrol.com contributers what they think of the NRA.
Ted Williams - Conservation writer (Not the Hall of Fame baseball player)
"Property-rights zealots"
"...property-rights barker "
someone that resorts to branding someone that disagrees with his position with negative buzzwords.
James Monteith - Republicans for Environmental Protection America
'...blamed the Blue Ribbon Coalition, in part, “for the obnoxious spread of motorized vehicles and the associated resource damage and conflicts.” '
REP America
Go back and read the BRC RECREATIONAL CODE OF ETHICS & POLICY STATEMENTS. Mr Monteith is full of sh!t.
I'm signed up for environmentalists alerts as well. KNOW YOUR ENEMY.
And finally...
You STILL haven't provided evidence of the direct link you alledge. Just opinions from baseless conclusions. Either back away from it or PROVE IT.
I'm sure you could find hundreds of quotes like the ones you posted.
However, you have yet to find something meaningful that comes from an unbiased source. That's like asking handguncontrol.com contributers what they think of the NRA.
Ted Williams - Conservation writer (Not the Hall of Fame baseball player)
"Property-rights zealots"
"...property-rights barker "
someone that resorts to branding someone that disagrees with his position with negative buzzwords.
James Monteith - Republicans for Environmental Protection America
'...blamed the Blue Ribbon Coalition, in part, “for the obnoxious spread of motorized vehicles and the associated resource damage and conflicts.” '
REP America
Go back and read the BRC RECREATIONAL CODE OF ETHICS & POLICY STATEMENTS. Mr Monteith is full of sh!t.
I'm signed up for environmentalists alerts as well. KNOW YOUR ENEMY.
And finally...
You STILL haven't provided evidence of the direct link you alledge. Just opinions from baseless conclusions. Either back away from it or PROVE IT.
BigHornyRam
New member
Buzz,
I don't really care about road closures, I don't ride. I'll tell you this however, keep pissing off large groups of people by militantly opposing their ways, and you are going to get squashed like a bug. Ever hear of the words balance and compromise?
Paul
I don't really care about road closures, I don't ride. I'll tell you this however, keep pissing off large groups of people by militantly opposing their ways, and you are going to get squashed like a bug. Ever hear of the words balance and compromise?
Paul
BuzzH
Well-known member
Yeah Paul, I have heard of the word "compromise" and thats exactly why we (sportsmen) have had and continue to have our asses handed to us by political interest groups.
Go ahead, keep compromising, the only thing being compromised is the health of the land, the wildlife you pretend to give a shit about, and crucial wildlife habitat.
While you sit on your sorry ass and "compromise" some more, rest assured your more than likely being sold down the river for your lack of a spine.
The last 60+ years its been a very one-sided "compromise".
No thanks on the compromise, I'm in it for wildlife and the habitat they need...theres some things that I wont "compromise" on.
Heres to more gates and more land being off-limits to ATV's, snowmobiles, etc...I win again, and I dont give a crap what the BRC, or anyone else has to say about it.
Go ahead, keep compromising, the only thing being compromised is the health of the land, the wildlife you pretend to give a shit about, and crucial wildlife habitat.
While you sit on your sorry ass and "compromise" some more, rest assured your more than likely being sold down the river for your lack of a spine.
The last 60+ years its been a very one-sided "compromise".
No thanks on the compromise, I'm in it for wildlife and the habitat they need...theres some things that I wont "compromise" on.
Heres to more gates and more land being off-limits to ATV's, snowmobiles, etc...I win again, and I dont give a crap what the BRC, or anyone else has to say about it.
Ithaca 37
New member
Paul, the trouble with all this compromising is that the sportsmen have compromised away all they can afford to. There's never been any compromise on the part of the extraction industries---they just take all they can, legally or illegally every chance they get.
95% of the old growth in the US has been cut and they want to cut the last 5%. You call that a compromise?
95% of the old growth in the US has been cut and they want to cut the last 5%. You call that a compromise?
BigHornyRam
New member
Buzz and IT,
I do not have a problem sharing my public lands with fellow Americans, who choose to pursue different activities than mine. I can only hope that the majority of Americans that do not hunt, continue to give me the courtesy to pursue my passion. Do you guys have a problem with sharing?
If you guys do not want to share and compromise, then your cause has already lost. I am not sure where buzz gets his claim that wildlife has been compromissed away in the last 60 years. In that time, millions of acres of wilderness has been designated. Countless wildlife organizations have been formed. Our big game populations are far better of today than they were around 1900.
The bighorn sheep populations are definately better off today. The organization that I'm involved with has recently helped allow a new sheep transplant in the Greenhorn Mountains in Montana to take place. The nearest domestic sheep producer had numerous concerns that needed to be addressed in order to proceed with the transplant. If we would have followed IT and Buzz's no compromise approach, then this transplant would never have occured.
Hangar's organization promotes responsible, ethical off road vehicle use. Exactly what organizations like them should promote. Only those with an agenda would critisize such organizations.
Paul
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-19-2003 06:52: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
I do not have a problem sharing my public lands with fellow Americans, who choose to pursue different activities than mine. I can only hope that the majority of Americans that do not hunt, continue to give me the courtesy to pursue my passion. Do you guys have a problem with sharing?
If you guys do not want to share and compromise, then your cause has already lost. I am not sure where buzz gets his claim that wildlife has been compromissed away in the last 60 years. In that time, millions of acres of wilderness has been designated. Countless wildlife organizations have been formed. Our big game populations are far better of today than they were around 1900.
The bighorn sheep populations are definately better off today. The organization that I'm involved with has recently helped allow a new sheep transplant in the Greenhorn Mountains in Montana to take place. The nearest domestic sheep producer had numerous concerns that needed to be addressed in order to proceed with the transplant. If we would have followed IT and Buzz's no compromise approach, then this transplant would never have occured.
Hangar's organization promotes responsible, ethical off road vehicle use. Exactly what organizations like them should promote. Only those with an agenda would critisize such organizations.
Paul
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-19-2003 06:52: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
Muledeer4me
New member
"Hey Hangar18, how did the BRC do in keeping those 17 hunting units in SW Idaho open to ATV's during hunting season?...I'd say they dropped the ball big-time!"
I don't think the BRC was directly involved in that issue.
I do know that there were ATV rider's involved and were in favor of thoses restriction's.
It did nothing to effect non hunting ATV rider's,so in that respect I would say that multipal use issues were not dropped and it will only help to inforce the law's that were already in place.
As a hunter and an ATV owner,I can say without a doubt that I will not be hurt by this new regulation .
We are talking about two thing's
1. The BRC fighting to keep area's open to a wide range of user's.(Multipal use)
2. Those org. or people that want to strictly limit all use,
The BRC isn't a hunting org.
Some of the member's are hunter's,but there main goal is access for a wide range of user's .
Im still not sure why that would be a bad thing? Inless of course you happen to one of the elitist that think you are the only one that has the right to use public land's .
I think alot of hunter's are shooting thereself in the ass by sideing with the radical invironmental org. that want to so strictly limit access and use.
As the hunting population get's smaller I don't see the veggie-group's being the one's that will come to our aid in keeping hunting area's open.
I see the multiaple use group's being more in line and open minded to hunting,as many snowmachine or ATV owner's are also hunter's.
If it come's down to access for a wide range of user's over access for hunting only,I think hunter's will be on the losing end.
I don't think the BRC was directly involved in that issue.
I do know that there were ATV rider's involved and were in favor of thoses restriction's.
It did nothing to effect non hunting ATV rider's,so in that respect I would say that multipal use issues were not dropped and it will only help to inforce the law's that were already in place.
As a hunter and an ATV owner,I can say without a doubt that I will not be hurt by this new regulation .
We are talking about two thing's
1. The BRC fighting to keep area's open to a wide range of user's.(Multipal use)
2. Those org. or people that want to strictly limit all use,
The BRC isn't a hunting org.
Some of the member's are hunter's,but there main goal is access for a wide range of user's .
Im still not sure why that would be a bad thing? Inless of course you happen to one of the elitist that think you are the only one that has the right to use public land's .
I think alot of hunter's are shooting thereself in the ass by sideing with the radical invironmental org. that want to so strictly limit access and use.
As the hunting population get's smaller I don't see the veggie-group's being the one's that will come to our aid in keeping hunting area's open.
I see the multiaple use group's being more in line and open minded to hunting,as many snowmachine or ATV owner's are also hunter's.
If it come's down to access for a wide range of user's over access for hunting only,I think hunter's will be on the losing end.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Paul, ever taken a look at a forest map?
Ever seen just how much access people have to get within a few miles (or less) of just about anywhere in the lower 48?
Please, I'd say 380,000 miles of roads just on FS lands is more than adequate for your atv buddies. That does not take into account BLM lands, which are roaded to death or Private...surely you arent saying there isnt ENOUGH access, are you Paul?
By the way Paul, care to take a guess how much of the total land mass of the United States is Wilderness? You think we have enough? I dont.
Oh, and on those sheep in the Greenhorns, your compromise will more than likely get those sheep a good dose of Pasteurella, just like those found near Lima in Big Sheep Creek.
Wildlife has been and continues to be compromised all the time...and thats WHY theres so many groups like FNAWS, RMEF, MDF, etc. Do you think these groups spring up because the right things are happening with wildlife? If everything was as rosey as you protray, we'd have no reason for such groups.
Ever seen just how much access people have to get within a few miles (or less) of just about anywhere in the lower 48?
Please, I'd say 380,000 miles of roads just on FS lands is more than adequate for your atv buddies. That does not take into account BLM lands, which are roaded to death or Private...surely you arent saying there isnt ENOUGH access, are you Paul?
By the way Paul, care to take a guess how much of the total land mass of the United States is Wilderness? You think we have enough? I dont.
Oh, and on those sheep in the Greenhorns, your compromise will more than likely get those sheep a good dose of Pasteurella, just like those found near Lima in Big Sheep Creek.
Wildlife has been and continues to be compromised all the time...and thats WHY theres so many groups like FNAWS, RMEF, MDF, etc. Do you think these groups spring up because the right things are happening with wildlife? If everything was as rosey as you protray, we'd have no reason for such groups.
BigHornyRam
New member
Buzz,
You are such a glass is half empty kind of guy.
Here's a good example:
"Oh, and on those sheep in the Greenhorns, your compromise will more than likely get those sheep a good dose of Pasteurella, just like those found near Lima in Big Sheep Creek."
One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd. The sheep producer doesn't want any of the wild sheep to contract pasteurella any more than we do. The sheep producers are sensitive to the fact that if any wild sheep herd contracts pasteurella, they will be blamed, and pressure will be put on them from the Ithacan's to end their livelyhood. Sensitive issues that need to be diplomatically addressed. At any rate we got a new wild sheep herd established in Montana.
Paul
You are such a glass is half empty kind of guy.
Here's a good example:
"Oh, and on those sheep in the Greenhorns, your compromise will more than likely get those sheep a good dose of Pasteurella, just like those found near Lima in Big Sheep Creek."
One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd. The sheep producer doesn't want any of the wild sheep to contract pasteurella any more than we do. The sheep producers are sensitive to the fact that if any wild sheep herd contracts pasteurella, they will be blamed, and pressure will be put on them from the Ithacan's to end their livelyhood. Sensitive issues that need to be diplomatically addressed. At any rate we got a new wild sheep herd established in Montana.
Paul
BuzzH
Well-known member
Paul, no I'm not a glass is half empty type of guy, I'm just not afraid of the truth.
Honestly, what friggen chance do those sheep have of NOT contracting pasteurella in the Greenhorns?
Beings how the Gravelly range is fargin littered with domestic sheep, and its only a hop-skip-and jump to the Greenhorns...I'd give that herd a 90-95% probability of getting the disease. I'm not sure if there are domestic sheep being grazed in the Greenhorns, but theres lots of them very close...I say too close. I worked in all that country for a few years, I saw domestic sheep all over the damn place.
Also from my own observations as well as countless studies have proven, wild sheep disperse all over the place. Its highly likely for one to come into contact with a domestic sheep, and thats about all it takes.
What needs to happen is for the domestic sheep grazing on public lands to end. Ithaca has already proved it many times over it isnt profitable for the government...and it imperils wild sheep...by the way, what the hell kind of a wild sheep advocate would not want domestic sheep grazing on NF lands to end? Damn few would be my guess.
Thanks for proving my point that wildlife takes the back seat...even to unprofitable, damaging, and subsidized programs. What a great compromise! Good job Paul.
Honestly, what friggen chance do those sheep have of NOT contracting pasteurella in the Greenhorns?
Beings how the Gravelly range is fargin littered with domestic sheep, and its only a hop-skip-and jump to the Greenhorns...I'd give that herd a 90-95% probability of getting the disease. I'm not sure if there are domestic sheep being grazed in the Greenhorns, but theres lots of them very close...I say too close. I worked in all that country for a few years, I saw domestic sheep all over the damn place.
Also from my own observations as well as countless studies have proven, wild sheep disperse all over the place. Its highly likely for one to come into contact with a domestic sheep, and thats about all it takes.
What needs to happen is for the domestic sheep grazing on public lands to end. Ithaca has already proved it many times over it isnt profitable for the government...and it imperils wild sheep...by the way, what the hell kind of a wild sheep advocate would not want domestic sheep grazing on NF lands to end? Damn few would be my guess.
Thanks for proving my point that wildlife takes the back seat...even to unprofitable, damaging, and subsidized programs. What a great compromise! Good job Paul.
Ithaca 37
New member
Paul, "One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd...."
You call that a compromise and a good deal for the bighorn sheep? All that shows is how desperate you are to believe somebody has negotiated something beneficial for bighorn sheep!
Earth calling Paul! That's a terrible deal and wildlife got screwed again! And the fact that you're happy with it shows how willing you are to settle for nothing! Wake up!
You call that a compromise and a good deal for the bighorn sheep? All that shows is how desperate you are to believe somebody has negotiated something beneficial for bighorn sheep!
Earth calling Paul! That's a terrible deal and wildlife got screwed again! And the fact that you're happy with it shows how willing you are to settle for nothing! Wake up!
BigHornyRam
New member
Buzz,
Here you go again, talking about the past as if it were the present. There is only one sheep producer left in the Gravelly Mountains, and some day he may decide to call it quits. Don't know if you know this or not but there are some sheep herds that stick closer to a traditional home range, and there are some that tend to disperse more readily. Guess which sheep make up the transplant stock?
Ithaca,
I know this discussion is complex and you are having trouble following along. Go back to painting your nails.
Paul
Here you go again, talking about the past as if it were the present. There is only one sheep producer left in the Gravelly Mountains, and some day he may decide to call it quits. Don't know if you know this or not but there are some sheep herds that stick closer to a traditional home range, and there are some that tend to disperse more readily. Guess which sheep make up the transplant stock?
Ithaca,
I know this discussion is complex and you are having trouble following along. Go back to painting your nails.
Paul
BuzzH
Well-known member
Paul, what the hell are you babbling about?
When did that sheep herd in Big Sheep Creek die off? Wasnt it 1998-99? That isnt exactly ancient history. How about the Anaconda herd? Early 90's right? Root cause of both DOMESTIC SHEEP.
Theres still sheep grazing happening in the Gravelly range for sure, and more than likely the Greenhorns.
I dont care what herd you get your stock for the transplant from...wild sheep disperse, from every herd in Montana.
I will agree some tend to stay close to home (Petty Creek for example), but I think thats more of a function of the habitat they live in and natural barriers, rather than any instinctual behavior in bighorns. What is it the "dispersal gene"?
When did that sheep herd in Big Sheep Creek die off? Wasnt it 1998-99? That isnt exactly ancient history. How about the Anaconda herd? Early 90's right? Root cause of both DOMESTIC SHEEP.
Theres still sheep grazing happening in the Gravelly range for sure, and more than likely the Greenhorns.
I dont care what herd you get your stock for the transplant from...wild sheep disperse, from every herd in Montana.
I will agree some tend to stay close to home (Petty Creek for example), but I think thats more of a function of the habitat they live in and natural barriers, rather than any instinctual behavior in bighorns. What is it the "dispersal gene"?
